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  1. #1
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    Default Help with replacing a carvel hull that has seen better days

    Hello all I’m seeking your help with a repair job I am embarking on. I have recently acquired a 16 foot carvel planked dinghywhich to my untrained eye looks similar to a Haven 12 ½. From what I can gathershe has not hit water for over 22 years and has spent that time in two sheds awaiting repair.In the past the hull has been fibre glassed and now the planking is in a very poorcondition and I can see where glass, epoxy and planks have split as water hasswelled some planks beyond the fibreglass tolerances. Above the waterline mostof the planks are OK and the caulking and whatever was used to seal thecaulking is still intact. I am planning to give “Cilla” a new lease of life and try toget her back on the water. At the moment I am having a great time stripping theold fibreglass and paint from the hull (now this a real hoot!) so that I can get agood clear look at the plank conditions. My first and somewhat naive thoughts were that I would bogup the gaps and glass the hull but after reading about the perils of this andseeing what this method has done to the hull I have definitely decided not togo down this path. My problem, however, is that I do not think that a carvelplanked hull will suit my needs as I will not he able to keep her in the waterand I will need to trailer her (to the coast from Canberra). To an extent I amtorn between restoring her to former glory or making a useable boat for myselfand the kids and now feel that I need to be practical about the end product. Assuch could I ask you opinions and advice on restoring the hull? In particular:· Would it be feasible to remove the planks thenbuild a cold moulded or strip planked hull?· If so what would be the better method and whatare the pros and cons with each approach?· I am keen to retain the hull ribs as I like theclassic look. Could this be used as the frame or strongback?· At the moment “Cilla” is very heavy andconsidering I will need to trailer her would a stripped or cold moulded hull belighter and could this significantly affect the boats stability on thewater?If anyone has some thoughts on the above questions or justsome general suggestions I would really appreciate your advice. If anyone has done this before please pass on the benefits of your trial and tribulations. I would probably be easier to start afresh with a new build but this I like this design and would love to get her back on the water.Sean
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    Last edited by Hawko; 24th September 2013 at 05:57 PM. Reason: Change clinker to carvel

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Eustis, FL, USA
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    That looks to be traditional strip planking, not carvel, though this type of strip planking is pretty much like carvel, except really narrow planks in comparison.

    She's a riveted boat and the frames are really there to hold the boat's shape while planking, after which, they're just along for the ride. This is why they're so skinny, really just flexible battens to spring the planks over as they're hung. Now this said the rivets do hold the planks in relative alignment once installed, but modern versions of this building technique, eliminate the need for the frames and rivets all together.

    You have a number of options for this old gal, but practicality should prevail in whatever decision you elect. Taking her back to her original state would be lovely, but costly, time consuming and you'll still have a heavy, leaky boat. Traditional strip planked boats are a little better then a full carvel, but they have similar leaking issues that carvels do.

    You could just make seam and rib repairs, 'glass her over to seal things up for a trailer borne life. This would be easy, but she'll still be heavy. I see some unfairness in her plank runs, so you've probably got some tension cracks and breaks in some frames. These would need to be addressed, unless you put a heavy 'glass sheathing on the outside.

    Usually, when I see a boat like this, the cheaper way to go, is to use it as a mold for a new boat. You can reuse some of the structure if desired, but all of the planking is pulled and replaced. In your case you might be able to save some of the upper planks. This means you pull them, repair all the fastener holes and rehang them.

    Depending on how much rot and decay you have the in the lower planks, keel and frames, you could repair the structure and just replace the bottom planks.

    What I would do is make her a glued strip plank hull, over the repaired frames, keel, etc. This would be done piece meal, removing a few planks at a time and replacing them with edge glued strips as you work your way up to the sheer. You can use smaller dimension planking and the edge glued planks will not leak after it's done. Glued strip planking is a great trailer boat, because it doesn't need to "suck up".

    What are the planking thicknesses and widths now? BTW, she's not a 12 1/2 (not even close), but she is a traditional set of shapes and quite beautiful.

    On a boat like this, assuming a smallish rig, with modest loads (gaff, gunter, etc.) the planking could be 3/8 (9 mm) thick by 1 1/2" (38 mm) wide. At the turn of the bilge in the aft sections, you'll probably need to reduce the plank width to 1" (25 mm), so you don't have too much edge set in the planks.

    She has some reverse curves in her ends, which will make you cuss a lot applying the strips. On a boat like this I would plank from the keel to the LWL, then stop, cutting them off with the LWL. Next I'd plank from the sheer down to meet the LWL end cuts. This allows the planks to take a more natural "set", the planks run with the sheer, which looks nice, especially if finished bright, but most importantly the bottom planks will have considerable twist in the ends, so stopping at the LWL, relieves these stresses.



    This is a classic example of the planking from two directions thing I'm talking about. The boat isn't shaped like yours, but the concept is the same.



    This boat shows the twist that develops in the boat ends and you have to do something, because you'll just have to fight the strips.



    Most folks take advantage of the strips, using contrasting colors.

  4. #3
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    Jan 2013
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    Canberra
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    PAR Thanks very much for the advice - it is most appreciated. The idea of glued strip planking is appeals to me and those photos provide some great examples. Glued strip planking would allow me to work on this gradually by removing the planks as you suggest and it’s probably within my skill level and tool range. Would WRC be an appropriate timber to use or should I look for something a bit heavier? The planks are between 90mm and 50 mmm wide are uniformly about 15mm thick. After stripping the old fiberglass, paint and some weird putty I’m getting a better idea of the plank conditions which I hope can be seen in the photos. Between the planks there are gaps of between 5 and 10 mm that seems to have been filled with cotton and then some sort of hard filler. It is not lead based as I have tested for this perhaps it is some sort of silicon. I am not sure of the wood that has been used and am planning to take a broken plank into the local wood suppliers to see if they can identify it. There does not seem to be any rot or decay that I have uncovered yet and the planks near the keel seem OK. I think some would be fine to keep but as most of the better planks are from the sheer down. This may look a bit funny but the advantage of the method you suggest is that I can judge this as I am going. Do you think if WRC was used from the keel up and the original planking from say three to five planks down from the sheer I would have troubles withit being too top heavy? The keel looks a bit worse for wear but I might try to keep this as I think I could use some river red gum I have on hand to repair. The rig is/will be a gaff rig as two set of sails and rigging came with her. A gaff rig appeals to me as I’m not after a speedster and if I can go lighter then that’s an added bonus. Great advice. Thankyou! 027.jpg028.jpg029.jpg

  5. #4
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    Planking can take a few routes from a design stand point. You can use a fairly stiff, relatively strong planking, which permits light, scrawny frames on fairly wide spacing. On the other hand you can use a lighter, less stiff planking, though you'll have to beef up the dimensions of the ribs and tighten up their spacing.

    I'll bet you have a modest density planking, but it was fairly thick (19 mm is thick for this size boat), so they could use a smaller frame dimension and wider spacing.

    In this country an example of this would be Douglas fir planking (36 lbs cu. ft. - 570 kg. cu. m.), which is dense enough to carry most of the longitudinal loads, with minimal framing. WRC would also be a choice (33 lbs. cu. ft. - 535 kg. cu. m.) though the frames would be ever so slightly bigger/closer together.

    2" to 3.5" wide planks are wider then I thought they were, from the first set of photos. You may indeed have a real carvel, with really narrow planks (for a carvel). This would match you description of what's in the seams (cotton and seam compound).

    In either case, I'll bet this planking is shot. Planking much like an oil filter on your car and a consumable product. It has a life span and once reached, it's best to toss it and hang new. After so many cyclic loads and age, it becomes brittle, splits, checks, etc. You'll have to make this determination.

    I rebuild a lot of boats and most of the time it's more cost effective to replace the planking, then it is to restore it. It's a time and materials thing. It takes a lot more effort to remove a plank, get it's surfaces clean and fresh, repair any and all holes and defects, refinish it and rehang it, then it is to use the old plank as a template for a new one or use a slightly different method (as previously described) to plank the boat.

    The nice thing about strip planking is you can do the work "piece meal", a little at a time. You can pull a few old planks, clean up the frames, repair any holes, then glue on some new strips as it's replacements. Even if you do save the old planking, it'll still be a leaky beast, but strip plank (glued) will not, as each seam will be solid and once the whole boat is stripped up, it becomes a homogenous hunk of wood, shaped like a boat hull, instead of a bunch of planks with cotton and goo in the seams, just waiting to you off when they see water. Lastly a strip planked hull is inherently stronger, because it's all edge glued. You can toss out every other frame or every 3 frames (leave one, remove 2, leave one, etc.). In fact, most stripped hulls of this size don't even need frames (ribs), further saving building/restoration effort. Again this will need to be your determination as you start prying at things.

    I think the keys will be how good is the structure is (ribs, floors, keel, stem, transom framing, etc.), as this will determine the shape of the boat. If there's lots of distortion, cracks, splits, rot, etc. You'd be better off, just using the hull as a mold for a new one (maybe a strip planked or molded build). If the structure is sound and repairable, remove only a few planks at a time. If it was me, I'd remove the sheer and the next one down, skip a couple, maybe three, then remove two more, skip 2 or 3 and so on. This allows access to the structure, while retaining the hull's shape. If you remove the planks wholesale, the frame will distort, sag and bend way out of shape, so leaving some of the planking in place is the prudent thing to do.

    It's a pretty set of shapes on that old gal, so take your time and you'll have a fine looking little ship.

  6. #5
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    PAR Thanks very much. The more I strip the glass, paint and gunk off the hull the more I see where the planks are cracked and in need of replacement. Had a careful look at some of the planks and now appreciate the effort needed to remove, clean and refasten those ones that seem OK. Good tip about the keeping the frame in alignment through the plank removal and stripping process. I will post some photos when I have some progress. Once again your advice is most appreciated. Sean

  7. #6
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    Hi all

    Thought I would post some pics of my progress on this oldboat I am slowly (oh, so slowly) rebuilding. Since the 2013 posts I have strippedoff the old carvel hull and replaced with western red cedar strips which hasbeen glassed and painted. I have also rebuilt to centreboard case, built newseats , repaired and added some flotation in the foredeck and built a newrudder and tiller. I am now working on a trailer rebuild and trying to sort outthe sails. It seems, from the original pieces, that she was rigged with a standinglug main and jib. I still have no idea what class or type of design she is soany ideas would be most appreciated. I figure once I get her in the watersomeone from the local yacht club may be able to identify her. It’s taking awhile but I can a least foresee her getting wet in the near future. Hope the photos are attached.

    Sean
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  8. #7
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    Nice work Hawko, looks like you have an excellent boat as a result of some long hard work.
    Look forward to seeing it in the water.
    Cheers, Ian
    "The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot.. it can't be done.
    If you deal with the lowest bidder it is well to add something for the risk you run.
    And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better"

  9. #8
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    Good job Sean, must be nice and light now compared to the old planking. In a way it seems a shame to cover up all that lovely cedar but I guess the paint is more practical.

    Now, about that Night Heron on the wall in the background - I don't recall seeing any launch photos of it. I suspect you owe us a post with a few pics of it on the water and a performance report. No rush though - anytime tomorrow will do .
    Cheers, Bob the labrat

    Measure once and.... the phone rings!

  10. #9
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    Thanks for the kind words Ian and Lab@. Yep went with the paint as I could not see myself maintaining the exterior and to hide some of flaws in the strip planking. As PAR predicted there was some cussing (at times a great deal of profanity) when trying to align strips at the ends and so there were gaps between some strips and areas that needed to be faired that the paint is now hiding.

    The night heron was great to build and I learnt a lot about using strip planking which really helped out with the boat hull. Today it does not get a lot of use as I find it too small for my frame but it’s ideal for my 12 year old. I have also built a wood duck 12 hybrid (in the background of some pics) which gets a lot more use as it’s more stable for the fishing trips Igo on. The night heron does fly through the water though but not sure I would take out it in rough open water as its not too stable.
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  11. #10
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    Unstable kayaks are usually fast and wet. It's the price you pay, sort of like a race car having a lousy ride.

  12. #11
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    Well the Night Heron sure turned out nice. It's a shame it doesn't suit you but at least it gets some use.

    Post some photos of the new boat on the water when you get her done. I reckon she'll look even more impressive under sail.
    Cheers, Bob the labrat

    Measure once and.... the phone rings!

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