Thread: Painting guide/help

I had one of the Fibreglass Angeliques built by the QANTAS sailing club around '74 approx. It was my first (secondhand) NS14 and had a habit of spitting masts over the side.

Lovely boat running in moderate winds ... not a whisper of sound from bow waves ... just ripples running along the side of the boat.

Taught me a lot about naming boats!!!

Ha ... I used to race against one of the Aluminium hulls. He would never give right of way!

Do you remember a guy from Narrabeen named Harry May, He built a new boat every season and was kinda my NS14 mentor. gorgeous boats with laminated mahogany (maybe) and ash frames. Just gorgeous things.

My last NS was a Red Rog with a foam glass bottom built by Ian Bashford - swapped it for a Sharpie.

MIK

Brings back good memories for a lot of people talking about this stuff. Very interesting info on the develpment, materials etc.

I have finally picked out the colours for the boat, Norglass Pacific Blue for the hull and decking with Sandstone interior. The supports for the centreboard case i will leave an epoxy finish over the hoop pine.

Should look nice

Ace

Hi Ace

I thought about you when this discussion about Penetrol started. This product may be just what your old NS14 needs. Have a look and see what you think.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/w...3/#post1093738

Originally Posted by highace1

Brings back good memories for a lot of people talking about this stuff. Very interesting info on the develpment, materials etc.

I have finally picked out the colours for the boat, Norglass Pacific Blue for the hull and decking with Sandstone interior. The supports for the centreboard case i will leave an epoxy finish over the hoop pine.

Should look nice

Ace

Hoo yeah!

Thanks for thinking of me Woodeneye

Are you suggesting i use Penetrol to seal the flotation tanks? It seem like good stuff.

About the tanks.......i did what Mik suggested, i grabbed a damp sponge and tried to get as much of the salt out of the timber as possible. It seems to have reduced the amount of moisture that surfaces in humid weather. Ill have to wait again for another hot day before i get another go.
I also had a look in the forward tank, unfortunatley it seems to have the same problem of moisture on humid days. There is no way i can give it the same treatment as the rear tank due to access so i guess ill have to keep it well ventilated.

Hopefully i will get the chance to do some shopping for the good stuff (paint, timber etc etc) this weekend, that means by the end of the month she may sail again (thats if i can get my trailer sorted) Photos will be included of coarse, thats if you are interested.

Cheers

Ace

Originally Posted by highace1

Thanks for thinking of me Woodeneye

Are you suggesting i use Penetrol to seal the flotation tanks? It seem like good stuff.

About the tanks.......i did what Mik suggested, i grabbed a damp sponge and tried to get as much of the salt out of the timber as possible. It seems to have reduced the amount of moisture that surfaces in humid weather. Ill have to wait again for another hot day before i get another go.
I also had a look in the forward tank, unfortunatley it seems to have the same problem of moisture on humid days. There is no way i can give it the same treatment as the rear tank due to access so i guess ill have to keep it well ventilated.

Hopefully i will get the chance to do some shopping for the good stuff (paint, timber etc etc) this weekend, that means by the end of the month she may sail again (thats if i can get my trailer sorted) Photos will be included of coarse, thats if you are interested.

Cheers

Ace

HI Ace

They have a new product called Penetrol CIP which can be used under epoxy as a timber sealer, so you can decide if it will be beneficial in your case. As for the rest of the boat, it might be worth contacting their technical department to see if the application of Penetrol might help solve your salt issue?

However, I was thinking of the use of neat Penetrol over the whole hull to help key the remaining old paint for the new coating.

Howdy,

I would not usually use penetrol as a stand alone product. It doesn't have anything like the wood protection properties of varnish inside tanks. It also makes the surface a little sticky and prone to pick up gunge. It also tends to gum up sandpaper later on if you want to do anything.

I would look at varnish inside the tanks. If there is any bare wood prime it with varnish with about 15% thinners (or you could thin it with penetrol - but that is more expensive).

Penetrol's main use is as a paint additive. The manufacturers talk about a whole lot of additional ways of using it, good for them, but it makes more of a mess than is warranted in most cases.

Do your remember when the tins of vegemite were printed with little suggestions like "great stock for soups" which seemed sensible, but I wish I had kept the "great on raisin toast" or even more ugly "great in milkshakes"

That's what the penetrol guys are doing with all the marvellous range of "alternative" uses.

It is useful stuff, but their marketing department is a bit out of hand. Maybe it IS good in milkshakes.

Best wishes
MIK

With our raceboats we always flushed out the tanks with fresh water at the end of the season and let them dry thoroughly.

The salt just keeps everthing wet and almost ensures that fresh evaporated water will condense up high in the boat keeping the deck clamps and transom framing damp with fresh water.

The best cure all is wash it all out to get rid of the salt. Dry thoroughly and keep it ventilated when not in use.

I wouldn't overdo the washing out with fresh water. Main thing is to get rid of any existing salt accumulation. We used to do it once a year before laying the boat up for the winter.

Best wishes
Michael

Originally Posted by woodeneye

HI Ace

They have a new product called Penetrol CIP which can be used under epoxy as a timber sealer, so you can decide if it will be beneficial in your case. As for the rest of the boat, it might be worth contacting their technical department to see if the application of Penetrol might help solve your salt issue?

However, I was thinking of the use of neat Penetrol over the whole hull to help key the remaining old paint for the new coating.

Howdy,

I do find things marketed to soak under epoxy strange. I think it is a hangover from polyester resin use with timber. The polyester doesn't stick well so you thin the first coat a bit to try and make it "soak in a bit.

Epoxy works 100% fine as a structural glue. So there is no necessity for making it sink in from the point of view of adhesion.

The track record and testing shows that doing some sort of soak coat before applying an epoxy system in the correct way has negligible or no effect on the end result.

More detail and the results of testing here
Q&A Stopping Rot - High Solids Epoxies vs "Soaking" Epoxies - Michael Storer Boat Design

There is a place for making epoxy "soak in" and that can be to consilidate timber that has gone a little soft around the edges but is structurally OK. It can firm it up enough that it can be painted or varnished and look like normal.

But if the softness goes much deeper than very superficial it should be replaced of course.

Best wishes
Michael.

To be honest i had never thought of varnish to seal the tank. Im guessing there are a lot to choose from at varying prices. Ill have to look around i guess if i decide to go that way. I guess it depends out how much covergar i can get out of my epoxy kit. Im looking at the Wests System 4.8L kit, hopefully it will be enough ($137 i think it will cost me locally).

I did also notice that the tanks seem to have a silvery finish to them, anyone know what it may be? It looks as though it has been brushed on. Old sealer perhaps?

As i said previously i wet the timber as much as i could and then mopped it up. I then let it dry and then went through the process again a few times. On the humid day a couple of days ago it seemed to be not as bad, only appearing in patches rather than someone that has tipped a bucket over it. Ill wash out the forward tank as much as i can and see how it goes, working through an inspection port wont give me much room though.

Thanks for the tips.

Ace

I'd second Mik's comments about not using Penetrol as a wood sealer. There are so many better products then this. Varnish is fairly good, but shellac is better by about 10% at resisting moisture vapor penetration. It was in fact the old school preference for this task, used inside masts and between layers of double planking. Of course epoxy beats them both substantially.

Originally Posted by highace1

I did also notice that the tanks seem to have a silvery finish to them, anyone know what it may be? It looks as though it has been brushed on. Old sealer perhaps?

For a while, some owners used Silvafrost as a sealer in tanks, why, I don't know. I always used Feast Watson Weatherproof inside and out. Pick up a tin of Proof and a similar sized tin of any other finish and compare the weight, you'll see why.
Cheers
Graeme

Originally Posted by PAR

I'd second Mik's comments about not using Penetrol as a wood sealer. There are so many better products then this. Varnish is fairly good, but shellac is better by about 10% at resisting moisture vapor penetration. It was in fact the old school preference for this task, used inside masts and between layers of double planking. Of course epoxy beats them both substantially.

Any suggestions as to what they are PAR? I've used Thompsons but not many paints can stick to it.

I'll probably get howled down for saying this but because a product has been around for a long time doesn't necessarily make it redundant. It probably means it works well!

One of the things that varnishes cannot do effectively is seal out oxygen because they dry by evaporation of their solvent and polymerise, which is an oxidative process. This evaporation leaves a route for air and water to penetrate and begin the destructive oxidative processes. In this respect, products like Penetrol are much more modern because thy exclude oxygen and water. Because Penetrol cures similarly to an epoxy by removing oxygen and water from the surface it is adhering to makes it a very good sealer and preservative. It does not leave channels because it does not cure by evaporation. This is what also makes it very good on steel too as it stops oxidation in its tracks. A lot of the better car restorers use it and it was recommended to me when I restored my old Merc, but I ended up using an all in one product called POR15 instead. Por15 is like a one pack epoxy and can also be used for glassing and laying down carbon fibre. I filled a huge rusted out hole the floor pan that way as I was not able to weld near the enclosed fuel lines. Is that stuff tough! Imagine epoxy, but only tougher!

These things have their place, especially with stuff that is exposed outdoors to the elements, like furniture and houses, and old painted surfaces where they can be very economic because they reduce the labour of stripping. It simply rebonds the old paint to the substrate and amalgamates the new paint to the old. Epoxy, paint and varnish is not economic for those uses but a product like Penetrol added to paint and varnish makes it very economic because it extends the intervals between recoating. There is even one for under epoxy now.

It amazes me sometimes that we boaties can be so very good at adopting new technology and design, but when it comes to coatings we can be such a stuffy conservative bunch, unwilling to stray from the traditional methods even though they are so inefficient, and better ways available just for the want of trying them. A bit like asking the office clerk why he does what he's doing and he says because we've always done it that way! There is no Holy Grail in painting, just individual preferences and some basic guidelines to follow. Just read the tin the stuff comes in and add some common sense, or just read the tin. If we get into trouble, we shoulda read the tin! As the old saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat

OK, go ahead and howl me down! I'm a big boy now and can take it