Thread: Restoring a Jack Holt 'Vagabond'

And your excuse for not finishing that half built boat in your shed first is ... ?

Richard

Come on Mike, show us some recent photos. He's done a LOT of work on that boat and I reckon he's going to sneak them in bit by bit pretending he's working really really hard on the thing whereas the reality is he's worse than me

Originally Posted by Daddles

And your excuse for not finishing that half built boat in your shed first is ... ?

That would probably be due to my inability to get to my half finished boat due to too many model aeroplanes and old computers!

Hey...I'm an opportunist...(as opposed to an opptimist)...I thought this latest boat was a good opportunity.

Originally Posted by Daddles

Come on Mike, show us some recent photos. He's done a LOT of work on that boat and I reckon he's going to sneak them in bit by bit pretending he's working really really hard on the thing whereas the reality is he's worse than me

There is an inckling of truth in what you say...I have done a fair amount of work already, but just scraping and scratching the varnish off the boat doesn't actually change what it looks like an awful lot. Besides, I haven't taken many more photos yet. I thought I'd give people some background to my project before I get into the nitty gritty of the issues I'm having.

Most of my questions were answered by a bit of Google research. Mik's site is a great resource, as well as others that I came across. The key point with any restoration is "How far do you go?" For me, some of the decisions were already made for me.

The fittings were already removed. Yes, it will take me longer having to fit them all again, but it's much easier not having to work around them, and I'll get to clean them up a bit before I put them back on.

The varnish was already well and truely flaking off. No decision there...back to bare wood! The only place where I haven't gone back to bare wood is under the foredeck where the varnish was in better condition. A quick once over with the sander, then a couple of coats of fresh varnish.

The boat has been well stored in a shed, so the ply has dried out a lot, and hence the cracking and flaking varnish. The outer hull is sound, but no longer looks that great as a bright finish, so it will be epoxy coated to improve durability and then painted. I'm hoping that the deck and internals will come up well enough to varnish again. After all, I want my wooden boat to look like it's made of wood. But scraping and sanding the cockpit is a very fiddly, time consuming process. I'm trying not to be too precious about it, but I don't want the varnish flaking off again after it's first season.

Unlike the guy restoring the Rainbow scow, I'm not trying to get this boat back to original period condition, just original fitout, and functional finish. I have no problem using modern epoxy to fix it up.

OK, so lets get to the first question.
Question 1
The rear deck appears to have had a small amount of mould growth at some stage...the varnish has flaked off significantly, and the plywood is stained. The structural integrity of the plywood seems intact, and the bouyancy compartment shows no sign of moisture. The boat came with a tin of wood preserver. My question is...how do you use wood preserver? Can it be used under varnish, or will it stop the varnish adhering to the wood properly?

Question 2
While scraping the varnish off the bouyancy compartments, black gooey stuff seeped through the heated ply near the joint at the bottom of the boat. Now I'm guessing that that stuff is resorcinol glue, as it appears leaking out of the joins inside the compartments (pictures to follow). What will this stuff do to varnish? Do I need to clean it off the surface of the ply before varnishing? Does the fact that it's seeped through the ply indicate that I should be more adequately sealing the compartments? (Epoxy the bulkhead?) Will epoxy stick to the stuff?

Question 3
It appears that when originally built, the centerboard case was screwed onto the boat through a bitumen seal. There is a residue that smells like this on the king plank. What would be the modern equivalent of this...Sikaflex?

Question 4
The inside of the centerboard case hasn't been varnished, but appears to have been treated with some sort of oil or other penetrating treatment. What might it be, and am I going to need to crack open the case and reseal? If so, seal with what?

Question 5
In one section of the hull, the outer layer of ply has split and delamintaed for a short distance. The structural integrity of the ply appears to be intact. I've sanded back the edges of the split, and was planning on epoxying the split and maybe using some sort of through hull clamping to squezze the ply back together. Does this sound like overkill? Will it be adequate? Would just filling the split with epoxy be enough? The split isn't in a location that has high loads...it's behind the seat in the second plank.

That's probably enough questions to start with. I'm sure that there'll be more. As Richard suggested, I'll try and update with some more photos, but really, it hasn't changed much.

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Hawk

1 - Most wood preservers are applied liberally, I use a garden bug sprayer. Without knowing what type of preservative it is, it would be just a guess as to how well it works under varnish. Generally, plywood doesn't get along as well with this type of treatment as solid lumber.


2 - I've never seen resorcinol glue go from a solid, cured state to a semi liquid one, so it's likely this is something else, possibly tar, which may have been used as a bedding compound.

3 - In the USA we'd use Dolfinte (an oil based traditional bedding compound). I suspect you have something similar. SikaFlex is an adhesive/sealant, whereas the traditional compounds are just sealants. The traditional sealants are easy to remove and repair, the adhesive/sealants aren't.

4 - A standard oil treatment would be 50% mineral sprits and 50% tung or linseed oil, possibly with a few ounces of Japan drier added. This really doesn't work on plywood as the treatment only goes as deep as the first glue line.This is one of the few areas on this boat where an epoxy coating, maybe even a sheathing would be helpful.


5 - Your approach to fixing the plywood delamination isn't the way I'd do it, but does seem as though it would work.

I've seen the boat in it's current state. One of the reasons Mike takes so long to do things is that he's very thorough ... which in not an excuse I can use dammit.

She's a lovely looking craft, much prettier than the Heron (for which I have a soft spot having owned one). In her raw timber, she looks very promising and should be perfect as their family sail boat, which is what he got her for.

Boys, this is a thread to watch

Richard

Thanks for the responses guys. Richard, you're being far too generous, but I'll try to live up to it.

Paul, looking at the images from the compartments, you may be correct about the sealant. I haven't used resorcinol so I didn't know how it cured.

OK, as promised, here are some more pictures...as they say, a picture tells a thousand words.

As can be seen from the images, the insides of the buoyancy compartments seems to have stood up well. There are no signs of moisture or other deterioration. They don't have any coatings in them, but the joints seem to be well sealed.

Aft buoyancy compartment:




Forward Buoyancy Compartment:




You can see the dark stains at the base of the bulkhead where the sealant has seeped through. My concern is that this sealant will affect the adhesion of the varnish. You can also see how difficult it is to remove all of the existing varnish.
Forward Bulkhead:




On a side note, the compression post is lose at the base and needs to be fastened. Should I just whack in a stack of epoxy? What will be the issues with doing this?

Marine Coatings
The following images are the coatings that were included with the boat. I'm unsure how old they are, but they appear to be well sealed and still liquid.

Does anyone have any experience with these products?

I Googled the Forminex brand and came up with this site that has the product datasheets.

http://www.shipways.com.au/marine.htm










The tin of thinner has evaporated away. Do I need to replace it with the same product, or is there something else that is equivalent?
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Hawk

The epoxy enamel (single part) is actually a modified alkyd (oil base) paint, not epoxy.

The preservative seems to be a thinned epoxy, which is about worthless anyway, from my experiences.

Personally, I'd just toss this stuff and work with new, fresh paint and epoxy.

The black ooze does look to be tar that was brushed into seams and contact surfaces. This is an old school trick that works well, but leaves a mess, if you're not neat about it.

You can try to clean it up, but most of the time it's stained the wood sufficiently enough to always have some "shadow" of where it's been, unless you remove enough wood. Covering this stuff is the usually course of action, which in itself isn't easy.

The tar will bleed through just about any coating, but what I've found works is "poor man's chrome" in a can spray paint. These paints are actually aluminum oxide or flakes in suspension, within the vehicle (solvent). When applied the aluminum lays down over the tar, literally forming a very thin aluminum foil coating over the tar. This prevents the tar from bleeding through and you can top coat with regular paints. This is the only thing I've found that works on tar.

Originally Posted by PAR

The tar will bleed through just about any coating, but what I've found works is "poor man's chrome" in a can spray paint. These paints are actually aluminum oxide or flakes in suspension, within the vehicle (solvent). When applied the aluminum lays down over the tar, literally forming a very thin aluminum foil coating over the tar. This prevents the tar from bleeding through and you can top coat with regular paints. This is the only thing I've found that works on tar.

Thanks again for the prompt response. This is sad news, as I was hoping to finish the cockpit bright. But I guess it's what I expected. If I was to try a solvent on the tar to try and at least remove it from the surface layer so that varnish might have a chance of sticking, what would I use?

Hey Mike, Forminex is a great model aircraft paint, though you have to paint it very carefully because it's heavy. Thing is, it just laughs at nitro. The first time I used it was also the first time I'd used a proper spray gun - half an hour to paint the model then all day (literally) to sand it off again because it had added so much weight. Great paint when you lay it on thin though. The next coat was perfect ... pity I hit my flight box on landing after the model's maiden flight and tore off the outboard wing.

Richard

Richard

Originally Posted by Daddles

Hey Mike, Forminex is a great model aircraft paint, though you have to paint it very carefully because it's heavy. Thing is, it just laughs at nitro. The first time I used it was also the first time I'd used a proper spray gun - half an hour to paint the model then all day (literally) to sand it off again because it had added so much weight. Great paint when you lay it on thin though. The next coat was perfect ...

Great tip...thanks. Looks like the next dozen or so planes I make will all be Yellow.

Originally Posted by Daddles

... pity I hit my flight box on landing after the model's maiden flight and tore off the outboard wing.

You doofus! Now give me some tips for my boat...
--
Hawk

Originally Posted by Hawk

Great tip...thanks. Looks like the next dozen or so planes I make will all be Yellow.



You doofus! Now give me some tips for my boat...
--
Hawk

Funny you should say that, I painted that particular model yellow, maybe it's something in the colour

It was a hell of a prang. Maiden flight. Did the full pattern. Flying over bitumen so greased it in for a mainwheel's landing and whacked that big flight box I used to use at darned near flying speed. Tore the wing right off at the root.

If you use that paint on the Vagabond, I suggest you launch her well away from bridges

Richard

Originally Posted by Daddles

If you use that paint on the Vagabond, I suggest you launch her well away from bridges

Ok...I'll pay that. Good tip.

I'm starting to think about the bedding compound that I'm going to use between the centerboard case and the hull.

Are there any Aussies that can recommend a local product that might be equivalent to the Dolfinte that PAR recommended?

I still haven't determined how I'm going to crack open the centerboard case to actually re-seal the inside. I'm wondering how much of an issue it's likely to be.

BTW, I'm posting questions and discussions to this thread, but progress reports I'm now posting to my Blog.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/blog.php?u=27678

--
Hawk

Dolfinite is an oil based, traditional type of sealant. I'd only use this stuff if you didn't have other options and the joining surfaces were nearly perfect matches for each other.

I'd use a lower tack (grab) adhesive/sealant for this repair (centerboard case logs to keel joint). The usually suspects are 3M 5200, 3M 4200, 3M 4000, 3M 101, SikaFlex 291 and SikaFlex 292, plus a few others of which I'm not so sure about physical properties.

3M 5200, 4200, 4000 and SikaFlex 292 are just to "sticky" for my liking. They'll do a great job, but they'll damage the parts when you have to disassemble them again. This leaves SikaFlex 291 and 3M 101, given a choice, 3M 101 is the polysulfide in the bunch so I'd use it. It's much lower tack then the others and performs well below the LWL.

OK, I haven't finished with the centerboard case yet, but we'll get back to that. I've got a new question.

Tonight I decided I have a look at the spars...and I'm glad I did. Turned out that the gaff was cracked at the throat...another repair job. It's not bad, but I'll have to make new sides. The first piece of ply I'll have had to replace...so it won't match the rest of the ply on the boat. Oh well.





I decided that it would be easier to re-finish the spars if I removed the fittings, and maybe replace some of the fittings that looked a little corroded.

My question is...In the photo below, what is the purpose of the bolts that go through the boom?

I've included a photo of the nut, and you can see that it's a fancy captive nut, but what is the purpose of them?

Is it because the boom is laminated from two pieces, and to help stop the shear forces on the glue line when the boom flexes?

Do I need to replace them?