Thread: West or Bote Cote ... what's your poxy ... and why?

Gidday Ramps.

A long thread is a good thread!

BoteCote mostly because:

It's well priced
No Amine Blush
Great Service (I order direct from Loganholme and have it within 24 hours)

There's nothing wrong with WEST at all of course.

You don't need epoxy to glue the strips together either, just go for "yellow" PVA, it's all going to be encapsulated any way.

Cheers,

P

Peter,

How does Bote Cote stack up against Techniglue simply as an epoxy glue for furniture making? I like Techniglue rather than West because Techniglue is a gel and so less messy than runnier epoxies (though I understand you can get a thickener for West - but perhaps that might detract from its strength). I have never used Bote Cote. A litre of Techniglue, plus 1/2 a litre of hardener, costs $63.

Rocker

Techniglue is an ATL composite (WEST) product.

BoteCote have an equivalent product EPOX-E-GLUE which is a 1:1 mix, which is to my mind a little easier to mix in the glue consistency.

I haven't a clue how much but a phone call to Boatcraft Pacific 3806 1944 will give you the answer.

cheers,

P

Thanks, Peter.

Originally Posted by Rocker

I like Techniglue rather than West because Techniglue is a gel and so less messy than runnier epoxies (though I understand you can get a thickener for West - but perhaps that might detract from its strength).

Rocker

Howdy Rocker,

My understanding is that any one to one epoxy mix requires quite big compromises to get the right amount of each component in the mix.

There are strength compromises to gain the convenience

The strongest glue is the one with the powder filler - assuming the powder has the right properties - you need a specialised powder filler for gluing.

It is hugely strong whichever epoxy you use. The powder adds hugely to the "Work to Fracture" (by increasing the nett surface that can absorb energy in case of cracking) increasing it manyfold making the mix harder, tougher and a right bu**er to sand. Or is that s**d? The powder has spikey particles which operate a bit like fibreglass in resin.

The powder required for filling dents and hollows is not spikey but made up of hollow balls of glass (Q-cels) or phenolic spheres (microbaloons) or secret plastic X (Ultra light filler). They make a mixture that is weaker, easy to sand and not particularly tough.

And that makes them easy to sand

MIK

Regarding Bote Cote and WEST

This is so much a non-question.

About a decade ago two of the Uni Engineering Faculties here did some tests on most of the epoxies available at the time.
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One measured the toughness of the epoxies by making a glass layup and then recording strain (stretch) as load was applied until the test piece broke.

Because the glass layups were the same it was a test of the properties of the epoxys.

WEST, Bote Cote and System Three trumped the whole field. In terms of the engineering measurement of "toughness" (ie how much energy can be absorbed before the sample breaks) they were miles ahead of the field.

They acheived it in different ways - which I won't go into as it is a pretty complex area - even for engineers.

If you wanted to draw a generalisation from the tests ...
You get what you pay for.
All the budget epoxies at the time were very poor performers.
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The second lot of tests was to coat up thick pieces of ply with the verious epoxies and drop a heavy steel ball onto them from a predetermined height.

With the cheaper epoxies there were huge star cracks spreading over the whole surface - the whole surface was broken up - even where not contacted by the ball. When a crack started it just kept going.

Again Bote Cote, WEST and SYSTEM 3 all came out on top. With much smaller amounts of cracking and only in the area contacted by the ball.
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So why do I use Bote Cote?

It is because I have been using it forever - I know it better than I know my own mother.

This is going to colour ANYTHING I say about the stuff.

I find it predictable.

WEST is not predictable to me because I don't use it often enough.

So this is why the comparison is meaningless.
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Another reason the comparison is meaningless - I almost never run into problems with Bote Cote - because of my experience.

I have also been involved in advising boatbuilders, running classes and selling the stuff.

Other people run into problems with all epoxies including Bote Cote.

Now is that the fault of the product or the fault of the user?
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So in the end it is almost impossible to get at the facts.
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Then if I should come up with a negative comment about WEST - how much are people going to think ... Ah, but he is so closely linked with Bote Cote and he is trying to boost business.

So I won't enter into this conversation apart from pointing out the verifiable scientific results above.
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Have fun with this topic but expect a lot of activity and not a lot of light.

And read my FAQs on epoxies in general - I have attempted to be reasonably even handed.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~store.../faqindex.html

MIK

I have used West for a couple of repair/rebuild projects (wouldn't go so far as to use the lofty term "restoration") and I liked it because of the flexibility it provided.

• I had some areas where I wanted to impregnate some old plywood so I had some hope of new ply bonding to it.The runny epoxy served well.
• I found it useful to coat sheets of new ply before cutting/fitting. Just spread it out with a scraper.
• I needed a light, non-sagging, sandable filler for which I mixed in Wests "Microsphere" powder. (Boatcote and others claim this is a dangerous material due to risk of inhalation).
• I also needed a strong gap-filling glue for which I mixed in Wests Microfibre blend. With either filler I could easily get exactly the consistency I needed. And change as I went along if necessary.

I mixed small amounts as needed and found it very low-stress to work with as I could keep re-using the same container (a 450g Tuna tin) to mix in. I also used a ziplock plastic bag, with the corner cut off to dispense it efficiently, especially on long joins or fillets. Just mix in the Tuna tin, pour/scrape into the bag, Zip it up, cut the corner, and squeeze it out. (It's a real pain if the consistency is too thick and the hole to small 'cause if you squeeze too hard the zip pops open and you get a handful)
@#$%:confused:^&* :mad

The pumps seemed a really good way of getting accurate measurements.

In hot weather I kept the containers in the frig.

When I have used up my present supply of Wests I will try BoatCote as I have become aware that (at least locally in Brisbane) they provide a very high level of technical expertise and advice. Much better to rely on them, than listen to all the anecdotes that float around.

Hope this helps some... Trouble is, the more people you ask, the more opinions you'll get.

I've used both Bote Cote and West, and used them back to back as I had Bote Cote at home while I was doing my boat building course at TAFE which used West. Despite the non-amine wax of the Bote Cote, I prefer using the West, though I will experiment again with Bote Cote ... next time I'm buying and the stuff is available.

The big difference with the use is the fillers.

With Bote Cote, you get one filler for everything. It is gritty to use and a prize bastard to make nice fillets with because it is stiff and sticky and ... just horrid. It sets rock hard and what there is is what you're stuck with - you aren't going to sand that fillet smooth. I don't like the fillers and if the esteemed Bruce Mc (who makes the stuff) is reading, he might wish to consider this.

West has a number of fillers though I only use two of them - the 403 fibre filler for strong glue joints and the 411 micro balloons for nice, easy to sand fillets (and if I've got the numbers back to front, which I usually have, I apologise ). In reality, it is rare for me to use one or the other - generally speaking, it'll a mix of some sort. For example, fillets are generally a half and half mix of the two. Particularly for filletting but in other applications too, the West is much nicer to work with (smooth and without that horrid toffee-like stickyness) and you've got a lot more sandability, particularly as you add more of the micro balloons.

If you are coating a surface with poxy, and use West, you will either have to wash it down with a scourer and ammonia first to move the blush, or clog up a lot of sandpaper. I've done both and will probably just go with the sander next time, not worry about the wash down, however, this is supposed to be a distinct advantage of Bote Cote though to be honest, I don't remember being very impressed with it when I had to sand it in the past. Memory does play tricks, but I honestly don't remember finding the Bote Cote any better ... perhaps because sanding a coated surface is such a horrid job anyway. I will see when it comes to testing.

The Bote Cote fillers are coloured, to match the timber - this wasn't an advantage for me because the closest coloured filler at the time looked nothing like the timber I was using. The West fillers are white ... which matches nothing, which really only becomes an issue when filling holes or making fillets in a area that won't be painted. However, you can add a bit of sawdust to the poxy to get the colour right, something I've done often with good effect though to be honest, it's not often I bother. For the PDs, I believe Midge was able to get a filler that colour matched well, but you'll need to ask him about that.

Which raises the question, what happens when you use the West fillers in Bote Cote:confused: I don't know, and it's one of the things I'll try when I buy Bote Cote again. I can't see why it shouldn't work and it might just answer my dislike of the Bote Cote system. It would also give me an amine free poxy which will then sand without clogging the life out of my sandpaper. I'll also be supporting an Aussie firm the deserves supporting. However, should I find that the fillers aren't compatable or that the filletting mix is still that horrid, sticky mess, I'd go back to West in an instant ... maybe saving Bote Cote for coating surfaces (which is where the amine blush is a problem, not in joints).

All in all mate, go to your local boat shop and support their product, be it West or Bote Cote. Afterall, you'll want to be racing in there to get stuff from time to time, but they won't be there if they have no customers (but it helps if your local shop is as good as mine - Binks).

Richard

I don't mean this to be a thread finding which is best as like you say they're both great products.

I suppose I'm looking the the different characteristics to find which is the first product I'll try for my purpose.

So thanks guys for your opinions ... that's what I am after ... and thanks Mik for your non-comparison...at least it had some info on what not to use, even though I wasn't considering anything but these two (only omitting System 3 cos I haven't found it available around here)

So far

West
Cures harder
Is naturally a thinner product (better for working into the cloth) but can be thickened obviously
Good variety of fillers

Bote Cote
Aussie
Cheaper
No amine blush
Thicker (better for working on vertical surfaces unthickened)
One all purpose hard (but difficult to sand) filler. ... we now stand corrected here (see below ... thanks Midge)


Surely we can use filler from either supplier in either epoxy? Opinions, tests, trials anyone?

How am I going for my summary of characteristics so far?

Re your comment about the "local bloke" ... can someone help me out here ... is there one closer than Perth ... maybe Mandurah ... maybe even Bunbury:eek: ?

Originally Posted by Daddles

With Bote Cote, you get one filler for everything. It is gritty to use and a prize bastard to make nice fillets with because it is stiff and sticky and ... just horrid. It sets rock hard and what there is is what you're stuck with - you aren't going to sand that fillet smooth. I don't like the fillers and if the esteemed Bruce Mc (who makes the stuff) is reading, he might wish to consider this.

I'll phone Bruce this afternoon and complain!

Actually Daddles, Bote Cote do make several filler brews, the lightest of them (the filling compound) gives about the smoothest creamiest goo you'll ever want to know.

As for fillets, I did these with the sticky gooey gluing compound because I ran out - where's the problem?


Cheers,

P

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

Actually Daddles, Bote Cote do make several filler brews, the lightest of them (the filling compound) gives about the smoothest creamiest goo you'll ever want to know.

Glad to see they've got it. It wasn't available when I last bought some

Richard

Originally Posted by Rocker

Peter,

though I understand you can get a thickener for West - but perhaps that might detract from its strength

The Thicknessing powder adds to the strength. A few months back i didnt clean out the excess epoxy enough and the epoxy coated wooden tray i use was leant up againsed a wall and left for the weekend and on the monday morning wouldnt budge. So 4 or 5 heavey whacks with a mallet was needed and it ripped a big chunk of concrete out of the floor:eek:

West system + Micro filler = Seriously strong

Originally Posted by Lignum

West system + Micro filler = Seriously strong

Oohhhh yeah. I remember the first time I picked up a stem laminated from oregon using poxy (yes, it was West but ...). It felt like I was weilding a leaf spring from a car ... without the feeling of fragility you get with a car's leaf spring (in comparison):eek:

Dis is goot stuff. Verry goot mit fer boaten maken

Richard

Boatmik and Lignum,

Thanks for your info in thickeners. I am happy to continue using Techniglue for furniture making. It already has the consistency I want without the need to add thickener. I also like the convenience of being able to mix small quantities like 1/4 teaspoon for gluing individual joints. This is not feasible with epoxies that are dispensed from bottles with inbuilt pumps. I was just curious to know if Boat Cote has some killer advantage like being radically cheaper than Techniglue. But I am not enthusiastic about using any glue that requires a thickener, especially if it is potentially hazardous.

Rocker