Thread: To Bead & Cove or not

Gidday Ramps me ol china!
So a strip canoe eh?... now as your a shhh "darksider" I say go for broke... but for myself I go the bead and cove route why? I shall tell you

I built the Wee Lassie by Mac McCarthy from his book "building the featherweight canoe" ISBN 0-937822-39-6 available from your local library for free! When I got the book I emailed Mac through his site (this was prior to his retiring and present illness) to see what he felt of people scanning and copying his book to build the canoes his response was a whole hearted "Well boy if you have my book down there in Western Australia then I say go for it son and enjoy it just post me some pictures when its finished" Mac and I had many emails during my build and a more pleasant easy going and gentleman of a bloke Im yet to meet a real pleasure

So I took the numbers for the moulds and drew them out on 1in thick chipboard which cost me nothing since Id raided the skip outside a local cabinet makers shop a few weeks before (so far cost $0) and then set the moulds up on the building board (again I had already sourced this from the building of our home at the time cost still $0) so it was time to start cutting strips... I looked about but failed to find any cheep as in zero cost timber to do so till I spied the massive stacks of Tuart drying in the front yard... EUREKA!!... and so I picked through the stacks till I found enough planks to cut and discard as many strips as I needed to I had been to an auction a few months before and scored a stack of Sheoak for less than $400 so I grabbed one length of that (8 lengths so whats that? $50 for the length but I only needed 2 1/4in strips for the feature so probably $4 worth so cost so far $4...

I cut the many strips 50 in all I think lost count somewhere around the 30 mark as my brain got numb about then... so I had this stack of strips waiting router in a bodgy router table bunged together out of scraps and impatience quite an unstable item I must admit but I figured what the hell it will do for what I want... so my daughter went and did Dad a favor and bought him a gift from Bunnings of a set of el cheepo router bits and we set to!... even with my bodgy setup it went swiftly set up the router to cove do one complete stack then change to bead and do them again went pretty quick and easily actually once setup as you dont need to change the height of the bit or distance of the fence once setup and as all the strips are the same width the feather boards stay in the same place so easy as

I then began stripping... I followed Macs distructions almost to the letter... well other than getting somewhat annul and using masking tape as an added surity since I dont and didnt have enough clamps (well over 100 spring clamps and over 100 various other clamps along with ply clamps Ive made and still I havent got enough clamps!!)... he recommends doing the first strip (the sheer strip) with the cove side up toward you so the next strip lays its bead in the cove nice and easy to get a smooth tight fit then screw the first one down to the moulds and clamp the rest and as you come around the turn in the bilge you use those bungy cords but without the hooks just tie it through a block of wood screwed to the building board... wrap the cord around the strips and through the a hole in the wood and the cord itself tightens itself down easy as... then I got the tip of all tips for strip planking!!! Until this point Id been unaware of this simple but truely EFFECTIVE tip

Use fishing line!!... what you do is instead of cutting your mould to accept the clamps dont! instead put screws into the mould every 2 inches around it... now when you start stripping the hull (I went at ever 3rd strip but choice is yours) you tie fishing line off at the stem and wind it around the strips pulling it tight to the screw then back around the strip do this twice between each mould and it will be tighter than a puckered ducks butt! keep going right around the hull doing both sides at once...

The idea with the strips is to make one side end past the other at the stems... opposite ends opposite strips alternating the passing strip every 2 or so strips so it keeps it even and everythin equal... you then when all done cut them off to make a nice sharp join which means you will have a nice small rounded stem to laminate and shape for the stems

But believe me that fishing line trick is bloody worth bottling!

The cove and bead router bits from Carbetec (tell them your building a canoe or kayak and they will hand you the exact right ones) are worth the cost $100 approx and you will use them for other projects along the way so the cost will be worthwhile... cove and bead is the best in my view... I have recently tried the darksiders method ie: plane each plank to its exact angle and mate I have come to the conclusion that I am NOT a darksiders earhole! so its bead and cove for this little black duck... once setup its easy going... gie me me power tools or gie me me beer! ah buggar it laddie gie me me beer anyways!

Okay cost to complete (err to bury in the garden as a garden bed prior to selling the house) was $4 for the Sheoak $100 for the bits and $350 for the fibreglass and epoxy... I did intend doing a bit more to it which would have upped the costs by probably another 100 I guess but well in a moment of complete sanity I realized that the canoe would probably weigh in at around 70 or 80lb since Tuart is such a bloody heavy timber and the damned thing took 3 blokes to get off the moulds and into the hole!... but its an excersize Im presently preparing to undergo it once again this time I will use Kapur for the stems (such a small amount will add a negligable amount to the weight issue and some light Maranti for the hull Im expecting the cost to be about the same since no doubt the cost of the fibreglass and epoxy has risen since I did the last one Im guessing the $100 I spent on the bits will go into that gunk again... Im expecting it to weigh in somewhere around 20 - 25lbs maybe a bit less... Mik will no doubt pish posh that with his tiny weighted balsa thingy as hes done before (showoff! ) but I reckon anywhere around 20 or so lbs will be okay

Ooohh lessons learnt?
DO NOT SCRIMP ON ROUTER BITS!!! buying the gift was a brilliant thing by said daughter but to be honest it near killed me when on another job the bit sheered off and blasted around the shed at a godzillion miles an hour nicking my ear and arm on its way round finally embedding itself in the shed wall :eek: SERIOUSLY!! scared the living shyte out of me that did!! and I swore as I sucked up the blood from me arm and wiped the red stuff out of me eye that NEVER EVER AGAIN would I accept or buy cheep bits or blades for insanely fast whirring cutting things! pay the extra and get the good gear
Use the fishing line tip its easy and it works regardless of what anyone else may say try it and you will find it works a treat... leaves a tiny dot hole which needs no filling as the fibreglass and epoxy fills it as you do that job
Use light weight wood... do this!! Tuart is not meant to be used in strip planking anything intended to be light weight and float
Use a japanese dokusi saw to cut the stems and joins at the keel strip this saw is bloody brilliant for this purpose
Each step goes fast and easy if you prepare like a assembly line cut all strips at one time including the feature strip rout all the coves first then rout all the beads as your strips will all be the same thickness and size the bit fence and featherboards dont need to be altered
Much of your costs can be offset by preparing before you start having the chipboard having the planks having the glue screws and tools made it simple and cheep comparitively

Actually Im using 1/2in ply this time round for the moulds... chipboard works okay but has a mean tendancy to give at the cantancourous mean curves which was a pain in the ass ply should get rid of that problem... the other way which I think would be rather overkill is to use pine packing boards cut as per normal ships lofting but I wont go there as I think for a canoe thats rather overkill... the ply will be more than good enough for the stresses imposed... I am going to make one set out of 1/4in ply as a template so that if after several canoes I need to remake the moulds I have an instant reference (ahem I do have 8 kids 3 kids in laws so far and 1 grandkid so far another 2 on the way so I can make a gadzillion canoes and not be out of order! )

oooh one other thing?... ALWAYS but ALWAYS check the numbers!! offsets others call them Mac calls his the numbers in the book he draws pictures of the mould shapes and puts the distance from the centre line around the mould drawing you just transfer those numbers at the point shown onto the mould... but check them before you draw the shape and cut as even old Mac put in several mistakes "Oh you found them did you son was hoping you would shows your watching what your doing well done now just fair it nice and keep going be amazed how many folks dont bother checking and then when theyve cut it theres a lump in the mould and they cuss me for giving the wrong numbers! Keep going keep checking and enjoy the building son" fair dinkum mate Mac is worth his weight in gold

Cheers mate hope this helps (and Swiften mate? this was for you too! Go for it the Murray in a conoe would be bloody brilliant )

dingo
Thanks for that ... good thing I don't even need to visit the library now to see if they have the book in ... or if it's still in Dingo's shed. Obviously Mac isn't into stables.
Thanks for your ideas. I had a read of the '06 carbatec cattledog last night b4 posting and could see B&C bits ... which is why I asked.

ahem... you wont find the book in the Bunbury library mate... its... ahem ... in my living room!

But I pwomise to bring it back weely weely soon! Just as soon as Ive re-scanned it from cover to cover!! ... my last copy went down the creek last year

Its not a hard one mate honestly ...I will post pics as I get moving along with it over hopefully the next couple of weeks just got to finish a few projects off to make some room in the shed ...and depending on how my knee progresses will dictate how fast I get into it... cause right now? I aint movin all that smoothly and this is a bloody nightmare of a place for a bloke on crutches! :mad: ...You really dont notice all those small and not so small snags blocks bricks rocks stumps and logs toys bikes and other stuff around till your on crutches... then EVERYTHING out there suddenly finds you! :eek: As for the shed I mean talk about a bloody crutch users nightmare! trips and snags all over the place

Ramps, Nick Schade runs a Kayak Building Forum and if you do a search for "rolling bevel" you will find a heap of discussion on the Bead & Cove versus rolling bevel.

Originally Posted by Slavo

Ramps, Nick Schade runs a Kayak Building Forum and if you do a search for "rolling bevel" you will find a heap of discussion on the Bead & Cove versus rolling bevel.

of course he does I have even been to this site but I have omitted to look there . Thanks Slavo

I haven't done a boat without cusp and cove but have seen the results.

Without cusping and coving or something of that type the light will shine from the outside of the boat to the inside - epoxy even with the powder is translucent.

So the boat looks good in the shade - but in the sun can look pretty crappy from the side away from the sun.

I wasn't aware of that problem until a client went that way in my Duck Flat Days.

Also you end up with a vee shaped gap on the outside of the boat filled with epoxy filler rather than the nice fine line if you use cusp and cove. The gap also tends to be be a bit variable in width because it is hard to align the two sharp edges of the cedar strips.

You can plane the edges to minimise the gap - but that's like old-time boatbuilding - just buy the bits unless money is a real problem.

I don't think that square edged strips cause any problems with the building process - might need a little bit more time to make sure they all align - maybe need some extra temp fastenings between chipboard stations to stop them from moving out of line - because there in nothing holding them unlike cusp and cove.

Square strips might have some validity in bigger boats where thay are going to be painted inside and out or the stripped area isn't visible from inside the boat.

Michael

Hmm
thanks guys for your inputs. No one out there admitting to doing a rolling bevel?
found some good threads on Nick Schades forums on the subject (Thanks Slavo). Sounds like there are many probs with B&C anyway.

Two advantages are that the strips line each other up and that you can't see light between some of the planks (that would be sinful wouldn't it?:eek: or would it? The kids might complain that it isn't dark enough when turned upside down as a cubby house I suppose ). Oh yeah and once you start planking, the planking process goes quicker ... although not much by all accounts by the sound of it the tricky bits take a little longer getting arounnd the B&C ... in fact some even shave it off for the tricky bits ... uh oh light might come thru:eek: But the planking process will be delayed because you have to machine the B&C on the strips ... "but only takes half an hour" when you have the guides, long extensions etc set up ... and providing that you have very even thickness on you strips in the first place otherwise you'll end up with no cove on one side etc, etc and you have to be very careful with the softwood coves (I think Tuart should be a little tougher Dingo)

I think the part I will like most about like about building my own timber strip canoe is the creating a form out of timber part ... not so much rushing thru this stage and getting onto the f'glass and varnishing stage.

Thanks for the comments but so far the posts stating the probs with doing the B&C ("but I'd do it again now I know... and have all the jigs..and the router bits... and...") and a bit of light penetrating thru the hull hasn't sold me on the B&C ... and no, the price af a decent set of B&C hasn't put me off, I'd do it if I could see a real benefit. And Mik I wouldn't use square planks to do the stripping ... I do have a lovely Lie Nelson block plane and aren't afraid to use it.

Any comments from those who have rolling bevelled would be much appreciated ... even if they'd never do it again.

Well mate... dont B&C your choice you know Me I go for the easiest way in these things you choose to go difficult thats okay by me... its all relative

Now... when I routed my bead and coves I had as I said a router table that I had bodgied up from scraps sitting around the shed and it wasnt very stable... in other words it wasnt very good! and the fence was a couple of reasonably straight boards clamped to the 12in x 24in top... I had no infeed or outfeed tables whatever... so I routed the 12ft long strips dangling over the ends! :eek: Would I do it again? No of course not I learn from my phookups! but at the time it was the only way I could see how I could achieve the goal... and it worked I did end up with a stack of strips with B&C

Even when I cut the strips I had no infeed or outfeed tables for the first 10 or so till I got smart and bodgied some boards to the shed wall and the door to rest it on

I think at the end of the day mate if you want to go the plane each plank route then your gonna take a longer time to build it than if you go the router way... but its your choice and mate I for one am waiting for the building progress pics!

Hello Ramps, This was an interesting thread to read. I have done dozens of boats some by bevel but by far the most are Bead and Cove. I have to admit that I come from this with a weighted perspective as I have taught a number of classes and produced a number of videos on the subject of wood strip canoe building. So here is my take from the builder's perspective.

As a builder, there is some sense of accomplishment beveling the planks however I would never recomend it to a first time builder. Presumably if you are going to go through all the trouble of beveling planks then you are not going to use staples. If that is the case you will need to use a good deal of ingenuity, jigs, bungee cords and so forth to hold the planks in place. This by the way will get more difficult as you get closer to the center of the boat. You will also have to be particularly carful to make a good fit between planks. If not you will have glue spots that will show up like runway lights when you fiberglass the hull. trust me on this, you will not be happy if you have glue lines all over the hull. You keep refering to the light that will peek through but they will actually be bright yellow glue lines.

Mostly, I take issue with your observation that Bead and cove is troublesome if you have strips that are not uniform. You are right in this assertion however, this is just as much if not more of a problem with beveling. Uniform strips are a must no matter which way you go. I typically rip them just over 1/4" and then plane them all to a uniform length.

Personally I can't see the downside to using Bead and cove. It is not like it is cheating and the results, at least for me are much better. Bevel planks have their place. For instance a traditional Adirondack guide boat is generally beveled, however that boat has frames that stay in place and allow the builder to attach to something every 6 inches so the planks stay tight.

So I leave you with two thoughts. If you must bevel, have plenty of extra stock on hand as there will be mistakes and waste. If you are open to other options to achieve that boat builder feeling then use Bead and cove and buy yourself a good Celtic music CD to play while you are building.

Good luck with the project.

Jackbat

WWW.sandypointboatworks.com

wouldn't it take longer to plane the bevel right?

You'd have to plane the top of the plank/strip when it is on the strongback (hmmm, tricky around the frames) and you'd need to plane it to a line and angle.

I'd have thought it would be much, much, quicker to push it past a router bit. :confused:

Originally Posted by Clinton1

I'd have thought it would be much, much, quicker to push it past a router bit. :confused:

You can certainly mess things up much more quickly with a router

Richard (and I've only got a little one)

Firstly Thanks very much JackBat for your comments. This is what I was after, someone that has built both ways and could comment on both.

I have been one of the hits on your site a few times now ... wonderful stuff, the Adirondack really got me thinking of all sorts of ideas ... where can this process be taken. very inspiring

I don't think I'm thinking rolling bevel due the "purity' of it and yes I was thinking of staples :eek: ... opposite way round to some others who might have commented on this thread. I suppose my thinking was more along the lines of I enjoy woodworking and boatmaking is just another project (is that sinful??) but this may change. I don't really enjoy using power tools but they are necessary sometimes. The part of this project that I feel will be the most enjoyable is the timber work. I don't need to rush it but if makes it too frustrating hand bevelling 50 odd soft wood strips I don't want to walk away from the project with a negative feeling toward building another either.

I take on board your comments and I am still considering options. Just last w/e I got a price at the boatshow for a pair of bits to do the b&c ... didn't have them in stock, $86 for the pair, hmm not a huge ammount in the scheme of things I suppose, especially if I'm considering building more than one boat via this method.

I am curious about the runway lights that you refer to. Is it due to the yellow glue that you're using for the construction? Would a white/clear x-linked PVA cause the same issues under epoxy?

I am curious also what defines good celtic music over poor celtic music ... I'm open to reccommendations here as wel

Clinton mostly I have read of people bevellingstrips before putting them in place. Check, mark, plane, check, mark, plane, check, Oh sip taken it too far, etc ... you know just like normal woodworking .

I don't get notifications when someone answers my posts so I didn't get back to you quickly.

Strip building is an amazingly versitile way of building round bilged hulls. I am getting ready to start on a Cape Cod Cat boat using the same method.

Yes, the runway lights was a reference to the yellow glue. It doesn't look bad until you put the epoxy and cloth on. When you do the wood darkens up considerably and the glue gets very bright. I have seen this happen to a number of people. I try to warn them but no believes until they see it for themselves. Unfortnately by that time it is too late.

The price you are getting for the bits is a bit high. You can find them as cheap as 30 bucks for the pair or $150 for the pair that I have. A good trade off is the freaud bits. If you go to Amazon and type "canoe Bits" you will see them. I think they will run you about $70 dollars or so.

The first boat should be about enjoying the journey. It is a great hobby with a lasting prize. There is enough to worry about without adding to the pressure.

As for the music, I am biased. When I was producing the DVD's on building boats I went on a search for just the right music to use as background. Lets face it 3 to 4 hours of boatbuilding video without music would get a bit tedious. I came across a woman from NY named Cady Finlayson. I think you can find a download here. http://www.mp3.com/cady-finlayson/ar...0/summary.html

Her music was perfect for the videos and it is just great to listen to. Give her a check it is worth the time.

If there is anything I can do to help just shoot me an email or use the contact page at

WWW.sandypointboatworks.com

Jackbat