Thread: boat plans

why pay for the plans there free here http://absolutelyfreeplans.com/Boat%...boat_plans.htm

Originally Posted by mudgutts

why pay for the plans there free here http://absolutelyfreeplans.com/Boat%...boat_plans.htm

A quick perusal of the construction methods alone will tell you why you should be paying for plans!

Great for models, but as one who has a few boats in his shed, let's just say that mine weigh less than the screws required in the construction of most of those. Fun and nostalgic they may be, rewarding to build and sail? Well like most things, there have been a few advances in 40-60 years!

These are all (well most of them) great examples of plans in which savings on materials costs alone would more than pay for the cost of a decent set of plans!

Cheers,

P (Don't get me wrong, I like them as historical documents!)

The only plans that I have come across for free are a set for a touring canoe from JEM Watercraft. They are a traditional design using modern stitch and glue techniques.

In regards to the above, I've seen them and for the most case "you get what you pay for". More than anything else you probably won't have the support backup from the designer that you would from a bought set of plans.

Sorry, I didn't want the above to sound like a rant!

I must be tired, or maybe it's the drugs! :eek: :eek: (antibiotics!)

I may have mentioned a little while ago, a friend who has just popped over and saw the Eureka for the first time, and died of amazement, embarrassment and jealousy all at once.

He was too tight to spring for the money to buy the plans, when I bought mine, and opted instead for a "free" canoe from the internet. His boat cost more than mine including the cost of the plans, due to the additional framing timbers he had to buy, it weighs more than twice as much, is to put it politely, rather inelegant verging on inept in appearance and performance, and is generally bonfire material. His wife, an "A" grade outrigger canoist, can't balance the thing!

That's an extreme case granted, and a reasonably experienced person could probably adapt some of the plans to suit modern construction, but the point I was trying to make was: if you are going to do that, why not get a boat that performs like a modern boat as well?

Hope that doesn't sound too grumpy, it's not meant to!

Cheers,

P

Having just decided to join the esteemed company of SOGOBP thats the Society Of Grumpy Old Boating Pharts... I want to have a rant of sorts

Now... free plans? for canoes... get a copy from the library of Mac Macarthys book "Featherweight canoes" and scan it use it to build the lightest canoe possible... email Mac and tell him youve done it and he will laugh through the email and say to you "Well boy thats why I put the sizes of moulds in the book so you could build one or more enjoy your paddling trips" he doesnt call it lines he calls them sizes of moulds cause thats what he does draws the moulds and puts the measurements in you just copy them to wood and cut and build.

Old plans... well most old plans you will find that the info contained is enough to build a boat with... such NAs as Crowninsheild Herrashoff (sp?) both of them along with many others drew enough so that the professional boatbuilder could make a scale model from them then build it... in other words not a home builder... others such as Billy Atkin and Al Mason or even Gardener et al did design to such a depth that a home builder would have no problem even today building from the plans without the designer being there...

This changed somewhat with the advent of MotorBoating and Rudder magazines where many a design was offered free in the pages and many a boat was built from them... for example Coot was one of the most prolifically built and sailed boats where the design was done solely for the home builder through the pages of Rudder... however with the loss of these two magazines in particular the availability of free plans from NAs of note has become scarce if in fact impossible to get other than the above

Many a good designer has passed on as we all do... so many a fine boat design now sits in museum collections this isnt really a big issue the Peabody Essex Museum in Boston has Crowninsheilds collection the Mystic has the Herroshoff (sp?) collections and many others... and theyre available for a small price -$100AUD in most cases other designers works are held by their families ie: Murray Peterson designs are held by his son Bill Peterson Billy Atkins by his daughter as are Al Masons...

What Ive found in plans from museums is that they are scarce on info... you get 4 pages for Fame a 40ft schooner designed by Crowninshield... a sail plan sheet a building sheet a lines sheet and offsets thats it... however if you know whats what with boatbuilding and have the gronicles to tackle it then its enough to build her... what Ive found with designs from the designers family is that often the plans would have anywhere up to 30 sheets on the construction and everything in between both Peterson and Masons plans are in such increadible detail as to almost works of art and in the case of Bombeidere (sp?) a French NA they are artworks! (he was in fact a marine artist as well as a NA)

One of the greatest resources of finding out where plans are held are through the design section of the Woodenboat forum (www.woodenboat.com and follow the links on the right hand side) ask and you will recieve an answer in short order.

Maybe its me or the mood Im in or its just gettin bloody late but from this member of the SOGOBP thats what Ive bloody well found like it of friggin lump it!! so there!

Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

Having just decided to join the esteemed company of SOGOBP thats the Society Of Grumpy Old Boating Pharts... I want to have a rant of sorts

Now... free plans? for canoes... get a copy from the library of Mac Macarthys book "Featherweight canoes" and scan it use it to build the lightest canoe possible...

Howdy Dingo,

There is a heap of info in your post that I was not really aware of - so thanks for putting it up! Particularly the status of availability and the level of detail for plans from the different designers - Atkin, Mason, Crowninshield - great stuff!

Thanks from the bottom of my - er - bilges!

The only point I take issue with is that for the lightest possible canoe - yep - use Macarthy's great book, but you'll have to put it together with the info on
http://www.storerboatplans.com/Balsacanoe/Balsacanoe.html
if you really want the lightest possible wooden canoe!

;-)
MIK

aahhh Mik Mik Mik just the bloke I kinda expected good to see you ol son ... balsa? Why not Kiri which I feel having just cut some to have a gander would be pretty close to balsa no?... anyways!! Mac in an email once said he would love to make one of Sassafras :eek: but I corrected him by telling him that SheOak would look better... probably heavier but wouldnt it look ooooh so sweet and perhaps one of Huon pine would be even nicer... but sigh sadly he muttered and cussed me out rather roundly in his polite well mannered way something about the lack of availability of those two timbers to him in the Adrionaks (sp?) but anyway Mac is a great bloke and had no copyright issues with anyone simply scanning the pages of his book to make one of either his wee lassie (12ft) or his wee lassie 2 (14ft) designs... actually in one of my more totally insane moments I made the moulds for the 12fter and set them up did all the right things... till I couldnt find any other timber but that which was at hand which as Id just dropped several HUGE Tuart trees I had shyteloads of bark to bark planks sitting around doing nothin that I squinted snorted pouted and started cutting routing and finally had a shed full of 1in x 1/4in strips of beaded and coved Tuart sitting there... mmm a set of canoe moulds? a stack of strips? so yep you got it I started whacking them on the moulds... TUART!!! :eek: Never the less it suddenly dawned on me in one of my more lucid moments after Id got all the way around to the keel... that maybe my selection of timbers left a lot to be desired... she weighed a friggin ton!!! But I took her of the moulds with the assistance of 3 burly blokes and dropped her in the garden where she still resided when we sold the place... simply cause I didnt want to hire a crane to lift her out and move her!!! man I have some real weird moments!!

Anyway... Yes see with regard the larger boats Ive been doing the confused boat builder for some years now... and every flamin time I get close or actually decide on a design some rotten sod posts ANOTHER one that turns me head and there I am again totally confused... Before the flood of May 18 last year which wiped us out and took the plans collection downriver with it I had some 50 or so plan sets from various sources and had spent well over several thousand dollars on them... nowadays Im more conservative about them in fact I have but one set of plans and theyre only study plans of a particular Swedish Koster that resides in Nova Scotia named Elly who is over 130 years old and is presently having some much needed work done on her bum... these study plans are absolutely brilliant include much of the usual things that designers charge you for you get lines sail plan a segmented building plan of the lands planks stem and stern plus rudder along with the offsets shes 30ft LOD and 13ft Beam and still sailing!! There is enough info contained that I know of two blokes building her from them and a woodenboat school that has gone ahead and built one that is already sailing

Right now to the other info Ms Anita Mason is the lady with Als designs I will see if I can find her email for you... here you go ( [email protected] ) The Peabody is a pain in the backside when it comes to responding to email equiries from outside the USA but snail mail or a phone call generally gets their attention takes them some weeks to sort themselves out to copy and send the plan sheets though... but for Fame it was worthwhile contacting an American fella I know through woodenboat and he made the transaction go smooth as silk... Atkins daughter I can get her info pretty easily if you like... here you go... [email protected] and website is here http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/ ...Mystic I found it was simply easier quicker and altogether a better experience to get a mate to get them for you however as their designer library is FREEKING HUGE its probably worthwhile getting their catalogue. I also found it was better to have a good idea the length type and style of boat desired before contacting them they then sent a list of those that fit the criteria from the different designers however no photos just the list

Bill Peterson is a fantastic bloke who never ceases to amaze me with his patience to my rather inconsistant barrage of questions regarding both Susan and his fathers Coaster Schooner... I can also get his email for you if you need. Remember with these boats he designed them to be SOLID!!! ROCK SOLID!!... presently theres a bloke building Susan in the USA and a mate of mine has put a thread up regarding her from the link you will see just what a chunk of boat she is for 28ft... the Coaster is twice the boat! http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/vbulle...ad.php?t=11087

As your no doubt aware theres a shyteload of info contained here http://www.boat-links.com/linklists/boatlink-16.html woodenboat has to be the single greatest source of info on the web related to woodenboat building plans and design

Ooooh heck Ijust noticed your name there!!! WOW!! Your a bloody international legend mate!! Never known an true ridgey didge international legend before

Okay a few links? no probs
Yves Tanton... http://www.tantonyachts.com/images20.htm
Bertil Andersson for swedish boat designs of yesteryear http://www.batritningar.se/default.a...ans&Category=2
Daniel Bombigher (recently deceased but plans available with support)
http://www.classic-yacht-design.com/

Enough Shane ENOUGH!!! gawd I hate this affliction!! drives me utterly ratty it does! :mad: I willingly accept my state of mind and its altogether wrecked state of affairs I CANT HELP MYSELF!! Im addicted to boats and man when I see a beautiful old boat not being treated right man I get friggin stressed out something shocking... its cool Im cool no worries Im cool shes right sigh you need a general dogsbody over there Mik? Im aged Im cranky as hell Im a sod to get along with but mate I LOVE BOATS!!! all sorts of boats!!

Anyway enough from me

As I said Crowninsheilds Designs contained scant info just enough to build... well the offsets were there and that along with the lines would be enough if you know what your doing eh?
Herreoshoff (sp?) designed for his builders... in that he had a couple of builders he used consistantly and so he didnt put a whole lot of info together for the home builder in mind... from info Ive gained over the years many of the old timers did it that way the home builder wasnt catered for in any serious way till the advent of the magazines
In fact years back many designs were simply half models from which the boat was built and the initial drawings were lost one way or another mostly the builders didnt keep them only long enough to make the scale model... this was the basis of what they used to take the design to the loft floor and from there to the building

What I would like to see is a set of plans including the offsets for a Broome Pearl Luggar... I once had a set of Trixen (shes the one presently in the WA Museum in freo) not the offsets lines sailplan and building sheet... but well they became victims of the flood.. funnily enough I got them through a bloke in Sydney!!... but I would dearly love a full set of those plans... you know once when I had those plans I actually used them to create a set of plans for a 26ft luggar design? I did then I created a model from balsa which sat on my mantle for a few months then when we moved the little fella found it took it sailin on the creek and well what with pirates and cannon fire and such she took on a lot of water and well... but Joshy sure loved that model

Mind you Bolger is my hero as far as NAs go... the man is a living genius! yeah he created the box like micro and other crappy looking boats but he aslo created the Rose a bloody great brigatine he created St Valery a luggar and many many others... thats the one Im presently arguing with myself over buying the plans for by the way well that and the Golant Gaffer oooh and Ive still got the keel setup for Valgerda oooh and the keel wheel and other bits and bobs for the Stevensons Weekender... sigh so many boats eh?

Actually you know mate Im begining to wonder if Im not also a sufferer of that dreaded Aussie malise called "cultural cringe" with regard to boats... the only Aussie designs that I like at all are the old Couta boats and the boats of Halverson as for the rest I seem to go "hohum" nothing seems to jump up and hit me in the dial at all... I mean did we ever have a designer such as William Fife? Olin Stephens? cant say as Ive seen anything like that from an Aussie designer... sadly... see Id dearly love to build an Aussie designed boat of Aussie timbers instead of something from the board of someone from other waters... fine as they are Id like to see some Aussie designers pick up where the Fifes Masons Atkins Gardeners Bolgers etal left off... but I havent found it

Ahem... Myrna excluded of course

Howdy Dingo,

Yeah, I'm with you on the cultural cringe thing too.

It's strange that when I think of designers I tend to go American too.

I guess it is about the size of the marketplace largely.

Guys like Herreshoff, Olin Stephens and Bolger have been able to design a huge range of boats and have them built in a huge range of materials.

Nat Herreshoff - the columbia lifeboat (now a Woodenboat mag plan) through to the hundred and upteen foot Columbia herself.

Olin - from Frostbite dinghies through to the Lightening through to monster sail and powerboats.

Bolger from the Nymph through to the Rose full rigged ship

Like pick an American class - like the old Universal Rule R Class Yacht - the waters were black with the bloody things (now I'm even starting to talk like you MAAAAAAAATE) up until the point where L F Herreshoff blew them all out of the water with his "Live Yankee" in about '27. They managed to get 20 to 25 boats on the water for the National Championship - most of the designers you mention were represented. And probably half a dozen new boats built each year - a hotbed.

The similar size class in Australia was the 8 Metre - total of 4 boats - ever. And that is a cheapish simple 48ft daysailer!!!

Or 12 Metres - five Oz ones up to '83 - the Americans used to launch that many each season! (OK I'm exaggerating but ... not too far off)

But not only the Americans - how about Knud Reimers? Or Laurent Giles.

All these guys were able to put out a huge range of work - covering almost every conceivable size and shape of boat.

A little story ...
When I was in high school I used to draw boats on everything - a friend and I wrote to probably Australia's best known NA at that time - Alan Payne - to seek advice about going on from High School to do boat design.

He basically answered that there is no money in it and it will be difficult to survive financially. He was right in some ways too.

One thing that lots of people don't realise is that the Herreshoff family was quite wealthy - one of their uncles invented ... BAKING POWDER!!!!! And also being among the creme of society helped - they rubbed shoulders with moneyed gentry, man! Build me a boat for less than a Million dollars ... OK!

They could afford to set up an infrastructure intensive business like their boatbuilding business where they forged the keelbolts and anchors, turned the turnbuckles, sawed their own lumber and the rest.

Australia - well ...

It doesn't mean that there haven't been good designers - Payne came up with G1 and G2 after all - bloody fast 12 metres - the tassie seabird too - but in hte end there wasn't the money here for him to really get cracking and do a huge range of stuff. Same with Miller/Lexcen - some brilliant boats there - like the original Apollo even though you had to wear your wet weather gear down below as soon as there was water on the deck.

They just didn't get a chance. Conditions weren't right here. So they did a few boats here and there - some worked well - some were a bit ho-hum. They just didn't have the opportunity to develop their ideas.

Sad really!

MIK
(well you had a couple of rants - I deserved at least one!)

Could you two please get together and produce a presis of those posts, preferably in something less than 1,000 words

Richard

Originally Posted by Daddles

Could you two please get together and produce a presis of those posts, preferably in something less than 1,000 words

OK, here goes:

Wouldn't it be good if we had a history of wealthy people paying for great designs from clever designers.

Yes, but we don't.

No

So that's why we look to old designs from overseas rather than giving the locals a go.

Yes, but there are one or two blokes who had a red hot go, but it didn't seem to click the same.

End precis.


Now chaps, it's all very interesting, but what about looking across the Tasman. If it's classics you want, look to to the East Islands of Oz and look at what the Logans and others have been doing all that time. Nifty good looking boats that would at least whop the socks off the Seppo versions in looks and performance, and you could sail 'em barefoot. (What is it with Kiwi's and not wearing shoes when they sail? There's no sheep poo to stand in to warm 'em up on a boat!)

Cheers.

P (consider this thread completely devalued now I suppose)

Ohhh foookit.
You take the genius of a lovely bloke like our MIK, add the insanity of the dingo plus the midge, hell, I'm struggling to maintain credibility.

Seriously, if it was designed by Mik, it's good. It may not be the Herreshoft or Oughtred look alike that you wanted, but it's good - I know, the man has spent too much time attacking my misconceptions for me to doubt him

As for Shane. Mate, there isn't enough beer in WA to make you respectable, but that's why we luv yus.

Richard
frustrated wooden boat destroyer extraordinaire

I reckon there is nothing new under the sun as far as boat hull designs can go

Measurements might vary abit to suit timber stocks.

Originally Posted by Daddles

Could you two please get together and produce a presis of those posts, preferably in something less than 1,000 words

Richard

Richard ol mate that just isnt possible! We are yakkin about boats you know

As for Logans glad you bought them into the frame... a good friend of mine owns probably the most beautiful of them all in Waione... well Im biased I just think utterly shes gorgeous... But to get plans of them? Thats what were discussing now (ahem sorry Myrnasboys got sidetracked a tad ) Logans plans arent generally available online or pretty much anywhere else much like Fifes although they are I believe available somewhere its a major hunt to find them... and then theres the matter of how much info is contained within the plan set you recieve... If and I believe so they are like Crowninsheilds and the H fellas then not much will be within them perhaps 4 sheets maybe 5 including the offsets and these hopefully will be the full sheet and not blurred and distorted as Ive received some... which made them great wall hangings but of little other use

Your right Mik Alan Payne and of more recent times David have produced a fair quantity of designs between them and although Ive only had a couple of emails with David over the years (regarding that redesign luggar I spoke of earlier) I find most rather hohum when comparing with those available overseas particularily from deceased NAs... however its not my intent here to knock the Aussie designers but rather to say that the options of buying plans of Aussie designs is pretty near non existant... albeit not necessarily so if we include such as Mike Waller Turner Payne and I suppose Iain Oughtred could be included as an Aussie although If memory serves hes not just spent a good amount of time here and designed a few of his while here over the tasman Welsford is cutting a fine number of designs... but see theyre so few and far between that nothing stands out as exceptional you know takes your breathe away? that sort of thing

Of boatbuilders we have some of the best in the world comparable to Benjamin and Gannon and the other luminaries from accross the sea but designers are few and far between... yes money is the problem here and as you say Mik the Hs had contacts had the backup financially and so were in a great possition to attain the level of fame and notoriety they recieved... however I reckon there must be designers of note here as well Im just buggared if I can find them!

Sad I know... but nothing takes ones breath away quite like a Fife on a long reach or Waione with her sheer down as she careens through the bays of NZ or Fame as she ghosts along through Bostons harbor in the cool evening a coaster schooner such as Fritha sails a billowing as she plows through a heavy swell without a care or Bluenose as she races ever onward... all designs from afar all stunning all with a something we down here rarely find in our homegrown designs

ahem... back to the one in question I suppose... the designs of the old ferrys such as Myrna and over here the old Swan River ferrys the old 12 - 18ft skiffs that raced of Sydney Harbor at the turn of the last century with the boats overloaded with human ballast and topped utterly chockablock full of sail... I dont know... somehow I wish the plans were more readily available for such as these and then what of sailing boats of the 20 - 30ft class? did or do we have any other than those already spoken of by Payne? I wonder and where are they?

But ahem I wander again remiss of me I know... but back to Myrna I guess what Im saying with all this is that Myrna is one of our treasures and to me if your going to go into a syndicate or even do a restoration on your own then for gods sake do it right! Get the old girl back to rights properly. Is it harder to do it right the first time than have to start again when it all goes to shyte because you didnt in the first place? Theres help available if you dont know what to do... theres advice help assistance and knowledge available just ask but do it right eh? Think of it this way... if you could find an old XY Falcon 351GT "Superroo" sedan in rough nick but pure under the rust and crap wouldnt you spend the time to find the right parts to make her original again? Or as close as is humanly possible? You wouldnt try to shove AU Falcon parts in or even XR parts youd go after the original XY parts cause its a classic... and thats what Myrna is mate shes a classic

First port of call for me would be the museum find out what info is available on her photos plans offsets writings whatever then find out who built her what they used when they built her how she was put together... then working from whatever you find source out an old boatbuilder and get him out of his lounge chair on the dock and get him to go over her with you... tap his mind experience knowledge and let him be with her and mate you will find him hes out there somewhere... but when you do start fixing her... DO IT RIGHT! Clean her up from stem to stern inside and out take out the gunk googe and muck of the last almost 100 years strip out the paint of the years and see whats what down there... start at the bottom with the keel and work your way up the deadwood to the frames to the... and fix every problem you find dont pass over them FIX THEM... replace them if needed hell steam bendings nothing hard nor is caulking if you do it right and each step will find you closer to having the most beautiful restored classic on the water.

At the end of the day I guess shes your boat and you can do what you want... epoxy the crap out of her slather her in fibreglass and whack a friggin great dogbox on her decks... but what a sad thing she will be... do her right and she will reward you for many many years

GAWD I HATE THIS AFFLICTION!!! Nah I love it!

But Richard mate 1000 words? ME?? HAHAHAHA!!! Now that mate is a good one!