Thread: Cat ketch

Moggill ? Your just down the road...

What specifically is this type of sailing your planning to do ? I don't know your experience nor preferences but I wouldn't be putting 2 masts on a 15' boat your presumably going to store away from the water. Twice as much setting up, bits to lose etc. Single pole masts on small boats are easy to handle, and I am personally fond of the boomless loose luff gaff, similar to some of james wharrams boats. No stick to bang your head, cheap and simple to make, quick to rig and fairly efficient.

If you have sailboard sails available then that's something, assuming they don't tear first time out. I suppose the main advantage of a ketch in that situation is trimming to balance, unless you particularly like fiddling with several sails

Don't misunderstand me. I'm a great fan of schooners on bigger boats, but the justification reduces IMO on smaller craft...On the other hand there is always Bolger...

2c.

Howdy neighbour,

I suspect you may be missing the point a little, these two sails add up to 100 sq ft in total- small light un-stayed rigs on either timber or aluminium masts.

They are quick, simple, in-expensive and with a low centre of effort, don't need to be over-engineered.

The sprit boom meets at an angle approaching 45 degrees so only the ends will tend to make that sound-'BOOM' with your head, otherwise the sail will just glide over you.

This rig is also self-tacking- just push the tiller and the sails will set themselves.

At present I'm stepping a 20 ft timber mast onto a 13 ft single-handed boat, with outhaul, downhaul and boom vang to set up. These controls offer fine tuning of the sail shape, but are lost on me- I hust know 'flapping' and 'not flapping'

Fair Dink is on the money and Damian is pretty good too.

Sailboard sails may not be appropriate choices as

1/ It is hard to organise reefing.

2/ The older style used to have a fairly straight mast so might be appropriate if you can find some in good nick. The more modern ones use lots of mast bend from downhaul and outhaul tension but will be unable to bend the aluminium masts necessary to deal with the dinghies stability.

So masts won't bend enough and sails will end up too full.

3/ when the temporary cheap sails wear out you may have to get new masts if you had to trim for the sailboard sails (actually the mast length for the sailboards might be more than standard) and the area is likely to be around 60 to 65sq ft for a really old sail or considerably larger for a newer one.

Best to get the designed sails.for the designed masts. Rig can be pretty simple to get going. I did a photo series of RobinB rigging his PDRacer that has a sprit rig ... I didn't tell him I was timing it too ... took 6 minutes including dealing with rudder and centreboard (82 sq ft sail).

So if you set it up properly I would reckon sub 12 minutes rigging ... if you take longer you can look at simplifying things.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik...7594524425079/

Main mistake people make with these rigs is that they pull the front sail in too tight .. it should be at a similar angle to the centreline to a jib - about 10deg. Back sail should be trimmed to balance or display a tiny bit of luffing occasionally.

Rigs are very easy to use.

Best wishes
Michael Storer

Originally Posted by Fair Dink

Howdy neighbour,


Hello!

I suspect you may be missing the point a little, these two sails add up to 100 sq ft in total- small light un-stayed rigs on either timber or aluminium masts.

Which is about the maximum I'd put on a boat that size. As I said in the previous post the destination determines the path. That 13 footer you mention with a 20' mast sounds more like a racing boat to me. If speed is your aim you might do better with a single mast rig anyway. If relaxation is your aim I'd be going about 75 sq ft on a boat that size, on one mast, with a low C of E.

They are quick, simple, in-expensive and with a low centre of effort, don't need to be over-engineered.

Most new boats that size use one or two sails on an unstayed mast and a simple sheet to cleat. Can't get much simpler than that.

The sprit boom meets at an angle approaching 45 degrees so only the ends will tend to make that sound-'BOOM' with your head, otherwise the sail will just glide over you.

True but the outer end of the boom is the bit that hits fastest

At present I'm stepping a 20 ft timber mast onto a 13 ft single-handed boat, with outhaul, downhaul and boom vang to set up. These controls offer fine tuning of the sail shape, but are lost on me- I hust know 'flapping' and 'not flapping'

Again depends on what your trying to do. If your not a fiddler and your not after ultimate speed then simple rigs are wonderful things. People often make the mistake of saving a penny and costing a pound. "Free" boatplans often end up costing many times over, and cheap sails can end up costing too.

Search on "slider catamaran". Have a good read of that website. Lots of good thinking on there. I know you don't want a cat, but I think Ray discusses rigs aswell.

I totally agree Damian,

The slider looks like a very good package,certainly more pleasing to the eye than this:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/...ert/3/free.htm

Cats (rafts) are also more versitile when it comes to experimenting with different rigs.

I'm not averse to multi's, my brother built and lived on a Cosmos 1160 for a couple of years and my first sailing experience was on a Caper Cat.

I am looking for laid back 'old bloke' sailing now- if I wanted to work hard, I could take the OK out in a stiff breeze, but would probably end up swimming.

I wasn't actually thinking of using the old sailboard sails- the polytarp option would be a better starting point- I was just saying that the sharpie sprit is a simple rig- just untidy to reef.

Ah yes Geof Gilbert. 10 points for trying and origionality, he does some interesting stuff.

I sold my caper cat a while ago. Killed me to do it, and am increasingly frustrated at my lack of boatness...

You should get whatever you want, you just asked the question about a ketch/schooner rig on a 14' boat and I suggested why I thought it a poor choice. I've never been fond of marconis, expecially high ones, but the sloop in a smaller boat is a fine choice. I pointed to Ray's site because he articulaes things well, and doesn't make egotistical assertions. I enjoy his writing.

How about a cosine wherry or southaven dory with a gaff, sprit or lug sail ? In this size range your really spoiled for choice.

First Mate looks like an option.

The Cosine wherry doesn't fit in as it is not plywood stitch and glue or prefabbed like the others in the list. Strip plank - so will be considerably more building. Also pure rowing boats are tippy and tricky sailors in general and quite speed limited because of the tendency to squat at higher speeds (over 5 knots in this size range). They also tend to become less stable the faster they go.

Best wishes
MIK

I was joking, although while there are no strip plank boats listed he didn't exclude that as an option.

Cosines are reasonably stable and some have been rigged sucessfully, but whether putting a rig of your own design on a rowboat sits well with Fair Dink is another storey

All good fun.

Thanks Mik,

First Mate is still very high on my list- I'm waiting for Ross to get back to #1 so I can see it 'in the flesh'

If Phoenix111 is anything to go by, it should be a very competent boat- Paul seems to dissappear over the horizon when I've been on the same stretch of water,

I just fancy a bit more beam and I'm not really interested in recreational rowing of my sail/motor boat just the ability to get back to shore if necessary- there are plenty of simple/quick rowboats I can put together.

Originally Posted by Fair Dink

I just fancy a bit more beam and I'm not really interested in recreational rowing of my sail/motor boat just the ability to get back to shore if necessary- there are plenty of simple/quick rowboats I can put together.

FD,
Or you could hurry Ross along with Periwinkle.

It fills your requirements except the beam and just a bit longer. I'm keen to see the end result and hear how she goes.

It would be interesting to get Ross to comment on your stability needs vs the 5' it is drawn at.

Cheers
Mike