Thread: Dare I let the cat out of the bag?

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

phew!!


(But they are ok in a calendar, rather nice in fact!)

P

mmm so ve start vit someting small... an slowly next we vill get im to admit he ist likeing ze wing sail... zen ve get im to admit he vill like ze rudder set up... zen he will also be made to see zat ze shape is quite good for slicing through ze water and ze waves... zen VE VILL HAV IM!

steady steady catchy midgey its okay mate.... we know... we know

But you gotta admit that that wing sail shape is pretty neat eh?

Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

an slowly next we vill get im to admit he ist likeing ze wing sail...

I've sailed plenty of big cats with proper wing masts, and had a big aluminum rotating sucker on mine, fully battened high aspect main, so cheap imitations just won't do! (Unless they can be adapted to the Puddleduck!)

zen ve get im to admit he vill like ze rudder set up...

Well I did actually propose it for the Puddleducks as a cheap, light way of making them easy to build (to Mik's horror I do believe), and of course history will record that we built a far better arrangement for the princely sum of $3.00 per boat anyway....

zen he will also be made to see zat ze shape is quite good for slicing through ze water and ze waves...

And goink bouncy bouncy bouncy up und down up und down but not forwartz!!!!!

zen VE VILL HAV IM!

Or vill he haff hat you?

[QUOTE] steady steady catchy midgey[QUOTE]

Not in a Wharram you won't!!

Cheers,

P

Well Dingo,

Finally I got to David's site to have a closer look at Paketi.

I know the SA one quite well - at least from a distance. Not necessarily a long one either.

from http://www.payneyachts.com

She is a really good sailer as you can see from the pic. A light breeze down at Goolwa and she is moving along nicely.

I will tell you just how cunning that David Payne bloke is.

It looks like a traditional boat from before the turn of the century, but the hull is an adaptation of the New Zealand tradition of cruising yachts. Australia had a bit of a tradition too (eg Rangers) but the NZ tradition resulted in a huge number of excellent cruising boats that were fast too.

Compared to Australian boats they were quite a bit narrower with fine lines and a very long waterline (see how the waterline length in the pic is the WHOLE length of the boat) to give high cruising speeds compared to the more conventional boats of the same length.

When the NZers brought their "cruising boats" over here for the Hobart etc they used to scare the locals witless.

The long waterline does mean that you shouldn't hugely overload or overbuild this type of boat. Stick to the designer's specs for scantlings and if there is an option through choice of materials or more sneaky construction - lighten her up. This will give either more speed or mean more payload can be carried without starting to sacrifice performance.

She can be overloaded and still be faster than other boats of the same length but she won't hit her own straps with HEAPS of weight aboard.

Probably the biggest departure between NZ cruising boats compared to OZ ones is their narrowness. Australians have usually been interested in getting volume through width. NZ designers got the volume through LENGTH.

In general if you make a boat longer without making it wider it will be a much better rough weather boat - it will bounce and roll around less (the sea has less of a grip) and will keep eating up miles when deeply reefed.

If you make a boat wider it will bounce around considerably more because of the added buoyancy and make the roll of the boat much more choppy in feel.

In the pic the headsail is furled - probably because it is a pain to handle two headsails. I would be considering using a single on a good furling system. Good sailmakers these days put carefully shaped pads down the luff of roller furling headsails so they can fly half out without turning into the horrible bags they used to. With roller reefing sails there is also no need now to ruin the set with those horrible blue edgings along the foot and leech. There are modern alternatives that are the same colour (or a clear plastic that stitches over the top) as regular sailcloth and keep the sail smooth and efficient.

Or else go for hanks and have a downhaul for the head of the sail that leads down through all the hanks, through a block at the tack and back to the cockpit. Throw the halyard and pull the downhaul and sheet - you may get a bit of the bunt in the water but not enough to get into trouble.

When the wind gets too much a deep reefed main and no jib will probably bring the centre of effort back over the keel - which can be raked back anyhow to keep things in line.

If going for the cutter make sure the jibstays are set as wide apart as possible - on David's website there are a number of different rig options - and one of them has the gap too small - I reckon it would be a right bugger to bring her round even with an experienced crew.

I like the cabin in the pic a lot too. Looks like a real NZ cruising boat - and much nicer to cook under too.

A proper sailing boat that will surprise many with her performance - but they will be thinking she is a pretty old timer that goes nowhere - wont they?!?

Won't THAT be fun!

MIK

I would suggest that won't impact the appearance is to spend some time getting the foils right - rudder and centreboard blades. Use templates to shape them to efficient sections and get a good surface - then she will eat up to windward like an 8 metre. Well, maybe not quite that well! Also when the going gets tough she still will eat out to windward much better. Good foil shapes are an excellent safety factor.

Also keep as much weight as possible out of her rig. It will have huge benefits in stability and speed.

A couple of points about our two Aussie designers and their plans --

Whether you buy Paketi's or any other plans from David or from an agent, the price can be the same. (In David's case, this applies to all but two of his designs. Each of those two was specially commissioned and paid for in advance, and anyone buying those particular plans also pays a royalty to the commissioner as well as to David.)

In fact, it's possible for an agent to make commission on the plans even when undercutting David's RRP. (We do it. And were it not so he'd have no agents once his designs were known -- they'd wouldn't get any orders.) But agents can of course charge whatever price they like, even way above the price the designer sells at. They get away with it by relying on your not knowing who the designer is, how to contact him, or what the real RRP is.

In Iain's case (where, unfortunately, we're not agents,) you can buy plans direct from him and bypass any exorbitant fee structure you might encounter with an agent. Iain's contact details are --

Struan Cottage
Bearnisdale
Isle of Skye
IV51 9NS
Scotland
Phone: 44 1 470 532 732
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Mike,

I purchased a set of "puffin" plans ( an Oughtred design) recently. Before I purchased, I spoke to Iain about the boat and as I have dealtt with him before, and I wanted to buy from him ( 66 pounds plus postage about $180 OZ). He advised he had an arrangement with Duck Flat and that I should buy from them.

On contacting duck flat, they advised the plans were 226.00. I queried them that they were cheaper through Iain and pretty much they said if I wanted them then that was the price.

So I guess as far as buying from Iain direct goes, it seems as if we are being stitched up by Duck Flat in OZ.

Anyone else bought from Iain direct???

regards,

AD

Thanks Mike and bloggsy... Mike until recently I wasnt aware you were a seller of Davids plans and I think Im going to have to take at least the next 3 weeks (while away) to think about our talks and all the discussions had about Paketi

Re: the price thing... sadly it seems to be the way of things down here, recently I was amoured enough with a particular power cat design I sent an email directly to the email address on the USA site that email was redirected to their agent in the eastern states who promptly contacted me telling the price of the plans was $360AUD (thereabouts) and so I went back to the site checked the price in USD went to Xcom or whatever it is the conversion site and did the conversion $240AUD so this bloke was making a $100AUD to $120AUD per set of plans when I pointed out that if I chose to I could just send a ruddy cheque direct this peanut sent back "thats the price you either pay it or dont get the plans" that was his response verbatum!... so I emailed the site again and guess what? Nothing!

So anyway needless to say thats one set of power cat plans I dont have!

Personally I dont have a problem with anyone making a profit... none at all... its just when it comes with such an attitude I get seriously phissed off... and at that high a markup I wonder if they actually ever sell a single set down here! Or for that matter if they even want to!

Duck flat well... of course I would say theyre expensive I mean I want things cheep as well so I can then afford to buy more!! ... I do however think the price could be lower but that would mean a lower profit from sales... Although I do believe if the price is actually lower (meaning their profit margin per item is lower) more would be sold which in fact would increase their overall profit margin ie: more sales at lower profit each item means more items sold more profit gained

But getting into a discussion on pricing is going to achieve stuff all in real terms... and is actually a waste of time since the price wont be dictated or changed by us discussing it here... it becomes argumentative and leads to sometimes quite angry discussions which isnt our purpose.

Bloggsy -- I'm sorry to hear about that. But surely Rob hasn't got Iain stitched up too, has he? At that sort of price differential, it might be worthwhile getting back to Iain and explaining the situation again. Or are these the plans you've just bought, and is it now too late?

Unless Iain's signed a sole-distributor contract (you could ask) I would have thought a little negotiation would see him selling to you direct. He's a very nice bloke and being an ex-pat he's got a soft spot for us Aussies. I'm sure he'd be as reasonable as any legally-binding contract would allow him to be. Ask him if he has any other Aussie agents you could buy from. Or NZ ones. Or anyone anywhere else in the world, for that matter.

If nothing works, then tell him he's going to miss out on some commission, because sure as hell you're not paying the extortionate price his agent wants.... Then have a look at David's 3m dinghy design.

==========

Shane, given you're a bit of a couta boat man, have a look at David's Snapper Boat design while you're about it. Can't really live aboard as such, but she'd be okay as a camping cruiser for that weekend fishing trip you were talking about.
.

No worries Mike will do

So given that... Cinema $300 Snapper Boat $300 and Paketi $300... and given that David himself doesnt have Paketi in the trailer sailer section but rather the sailing yachts section Id have to say he himself doesnt view it as trailer friendly (I cant read the displacement numbers on his website)... Cinema and the Snapper boat are definantly in the running

Someone please show me where I can get some actual couta boat plans!!!... and then Im done from among these three or two depending on the couta will the choice be made

Lucky Im buggaring of for 3 weeks in a few days eh? else someone will show me something else or Id find something else and then Id be stuffed at least out there with no internet and no outside contact I can think and consider just the ones I decide to focus on makes things easier eh?

Mike,

too late, already purchased the plans.

I am also half way through David's 3m build ( going to be a nice little sailing dinghy).

regards,

AD

Originally Posted by Mike Field

Bloggsy -- I'm sorry to hear about that. But surely Rob hasn't got Iain stitched up too, has he? At that sort of price differential, it might be worthwhile getting back to Iain and explaining the situation again.
<snip>
If nothing works, then tell him he's going to miss out on some commission, because sure as hell you're not paying the extortionate price his agent wants

You're not slagging off at the opposition are you Mike?

No Bloggsy, if you are going to tell Iain anything, tell him you want to buy direct because you can't see the point in him sharing any of his income with an agent and you like to keep designers in business. (but in fairness let him know that the introduction to his work came through his agent, and you are a bargain hunter back-dooring them on the advice of one of their competitors.)

Remember if you do that, Mike's always there to give you unlimited free advice even if you didn't buy the plans from him. (I have no bone to pick with Mike, other than the above and have had no dealings with him and he may indeed provide the best service in the country, I don't know.)

On the other hand, agents deliberately undercutting designers RRP can only serve to drive down the value of the designer's work in the long term, placing a price expectation in the marketplace (so the like's of Dingo won't buy except at the discount). How on earth are we going to expect to get new product out of designers when their own agents are undercutting them?

When are all you blokes going to wake up to the fact that there's no such thing as a free lunch. From my rather limited observation, the blokes that charge slightly more in this business are the ones actively promoting the industry, providing the backup and support. They are simply trying to support all of that.

It's too easy for the fringe dwellers who never provide sponsorship, provide minimal service, don't support local events or clubs, to live off the hard yakka of the ones that do, without needing the same overhead (or providing the same level of service).

If you've taken advice from or even been inspired after talking to someone from a company flogging plans, buy them from that company, your enquiry has cost them money which they have happily spent in the interests of the whole industry.

If you haven't, buy them from the designer direct, why shouldn't they get the full freight?

Just stop the bargain hunting mentality, (and slagging the opposition) you are doing yourselves no favours in the long run.

Cheers.

P (I woke up grumpy this morning, I knew I should have just let her sleep!)

Originally Posted by Mike Field

Bloggsy -- Unless Iain's signed a sole-distributor contract (you could ask) I would have thought a little negotiation would see him selling to you direct.
.

Howdy Mike

Having a contract might be irrelevant - it usually is so in our industry where things are done on the basis of a handshake backed up by years of both the designer and the agent working to build up the sales of the designer's plans.

And Ducks have been working hard to do it and putting amounts that make the $45 differential in plans look like nothing.

Have you seen Iain's excellent Clinker Boatbuilding Manual? Ducks bankrolled its publication in Australia - They paid every cent to get a few thousand copies published - and they did that without knowing whether they would be able to sell them or not.

Did you remember when Iain came to Australia a couple of years ago for the SA Wooden Boat Festival - it was largely bankrolled and largely organised by Ducks.

They also used their media push to leverage the occasion get heaps of Iain's boats to the festival from all round Australia. The owners had a hoot - the designer had a hoot - the public (13000 people) had a good chance to see what the fuss was about.

And the festival itself was started with the help of Duck Flat - Rolly Bartlett and Robert Ayliffe were the two prime movers at the beginning to get the whole thing happening and Ducks have had active committee responsibilities for the festival ever since.

All this builds up the depth of the whole industry - which we ALL benefit from - hell - Duck Flat WAS the industry in the early days. They were the only ones paying for and doing nation wide promotion for what would become "the Australian wooden boat scene" some years later - later to be joined in the promotional push by Ian Smith in Sydney and Rob Denney in Qld, the AABB staff and others who were busy writing, advertising, organising events - just making things happen.

But I think that the argument can be made that Ducks were the ones who put their bits on the line the most consistently and the loudest.

For the consumer
$45 - Two people going to see a movie and having a coffee. It will seem irrelevant when the boat is built or you have to sort a problem out.

For the agent
Get a sense of the WHOLE industry - you haven't created it by yourself - you owe lots to everyone who has made some effort (read real time and real money) to create it for everyone's benefit - not just following their own narrow self interest.

That's how the world is made a better, more diverse, more interesting place.

Best Regards to All
Michael Storer

ahh well och aye thars all wel an goo thar midgie one... but Iain bein a bonny Scot... tha is a lad from tha fair isle would more than unnastan a bonny laddie lookin for a wee bargain! Tis in tha Scotish gene mate bargain hunters an tightasses the lot of em!

Do you yerself no look for a bargain? do ye not argue or haggle when something is dearer by far from one source and cheeper from another? do ye not take yer business elsewhere if your local provider doesnt give you a fair shake? Why the heck should purchasing boat plans be any different?

Personally I ALWAYS check the prices... always... if I can get THE SAME thing elsewhere for a better price then why shouldnt I? cause it doesnt support the person onselling? Well in my view and this is solely my view... if the local person onselling the product has whacked on a high profit margin to the item and wont negotiate that price downward or at least discuss doing so then why buy from them? If you can get it from another source for $100 less why not go that route? And why support rude and expensive opportunists when you dont have to... I also ALWAYS verify the price on the website is acurate at the time of enquiry since often the sites are just sitting and arent updated regularily so verifying gets you the accurate price... For example I did this with David with Paketi its not hard the designer doesnt mind and then its clear up front and above board

Okay so just talking about designers... Iain vs FlatDuck... I have no issue or interest in either personal or otherwise... but if I can contact Iain by using the contact info freely available and recieve the plans via him direct for $60 or whatever less than DuckFlat then why the blazes would I go to DuckFlat? that $60 or whatever although not a lot in real money terms will allow you to purchase or put it toward something for the actual boat and thats more important in the long run than giving that $60 or whatever to DuckFlat... who by the way would make far more income from other avenues of their business than selling the plans...
ClarkCraft vs their Aussie distributor... Why the bloody hell would anyone deal with someone who marks the price up $100 above the price when one can get direct from ClarkCraft itself?... even with the difference in the conversion why anyone would deal with arrogant rude local distributors is beyond me! "thats the price pay it or dont get the plans" Stuff the plans then sport! plenty more out there so stuff you jack you just lost a sale... personally I would have thought 1 sale would be far better than no sale? but hey thats just me

ooh and sometimes I will and have paid the straight up price for plans... cost came into it of course but after contact after negotiation and at times even after just mulling it over Ive paid the price... I do not only buy a bargain! When I have to I will pay the price asked

but if the Aussie distributor is an arrogant rude p***k then buggar them... if theres a major markup from the Aussie distributor be it sole or business then stuff them if theres a more direct route thats going to a) get the plans b) at a price that benifits both the designer and you... then go that way

ON THE OTHER HAND!... Ive bought plans cheeper from the distributor by haggling with the distributor some come down below the designers price to make a sale if they can do it... more often than not they can... they just have to be asked or haggled with or informed of the other avenue open to your finances.

see now do we now know why I didnt want to get into a price of plans discussion?... mmm??

Discounting Plans

Mike - I don't think you should be discounting plans below David Payne's prices pretty much for the reasons Peter gave.

Dingo - I don't think you should EVER negotiate with an agent to get a cheaper price than the designer is offering. Speak to the designer directly so they can make an informed choice about their own livelihood.
_____________________________

Using the example of Mike selling David's plans at a discount - It will simply reduce the amount of money David gets.

There are no rich OZ designers - either we are happy living in near poverty or have to work other jobs to keep going financially. All are battlers.

If David is anything like me he will sell around 30-40% of plans directly and then gets to keep the whole purchase price for himself including the agents commission - so he makes a bit more that way.

So if you are selling them at a discount people will come to you and David won't get to sell plans directly at all. Which impacts on his bottom line - he will make less than the somewhat paltry amounts that he is earning now for his huge and wonderful effort.

The way to get plan sales is to grow the industry by advertising, by organising events, by helping people even when there is not a buck involved (what I'm doing here and in other places - what Welsford does on his website, what Ducks, David and many others do) - a positive contribution. And they - we - get known for our enthusiasm and positive contribution and customers will come because they know that we will take good care of them.

Dropping prices will not sell more plans - providing the difference is not crazy like the doubling of the cost as per Dingo's American Agent experience.

This is because it is an emotional decision to build a boat - and only a certain number of people can get to that point. You can't get someone to get involved in this boatbuildig lark by dropping the price - they have to WANT to build a boat first and probably have to WANT to build a boat similar to the one you are hawking.

So in the end discounting below the designer's own prices won't attract more people - it just gets less money from the same number and in this case it is the designer who is paying.

MIK

Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

... if the local person onselling the product has whacked on a high profit margin to the item and wont negotiate that price downward or at least discuss doing so then why buy from them?

Because you like the boat.

And because when you start building it you might have some problems - maybe a missing sheet from the plan - maybe some of the designer's detail is not clear - maybe some materials are not available locally and have to be substituted. Maybe there are a bunch of bad offsets lurking. The agent will sort it for you and won't charge you anything for the overseas calls and so on.

Having a relationship with local person is very useful to many builders.

I would totally agree with Dingo about negotiating - if you do it straight as Dingo suggests - fair enough.

Some "rules" ) IMHO IMHO IMHO

1/ Think about whether the agent may be adding value as above, or be paying for advertising and promotion that make the woodenboat scene bigger - which the designer generally can't do much of.

2/ Never use the agent's time if you actually intend to buy the plan from somewhere else - it is just dishonest.

3/ Never ask an agent to discount below the designer's price - see my previous post.

4/ If you want to try and get a discount below the designer's price - front the designer directly and let the person whose bottom line is being affected make the decision.

Keeps it clean, neat and above board.

Best Regards to All

Michael Storer