Thread: Introducing, the Yellowtail Yawl

Jolly good show young grasshopper well done well done indeed!!

Sound advice from Doc Mik to I see damned clever chappie isnt he?!

Soooo ahem Richard me ol cobber whens the launch? lets do try to make it during a week off eh wot?!! I was just now talking to her highness about taking a trip to NZ for a week of in a few months and to my great surprise shes agreed!! :eek: so a small jaunt over your way isnt out of the question just need the incentive... nah dont need that just need a friggin reason!! and a launch is a grand reason

Plus Ive got freinds and rellies over your way that I havent seen for... ooohhh something like 30 years or more!!

Mate, the way I build, it might take me 30 years to finish her :eek:

Thanks for the thoughts. This rig turns her into the boat I've wanted all along. I don't think Mik knew that, but the boats that got me into this wooden boat caper were Iain Oughtred's lug yawls. Given a hull, an intended use and having an insight into the bloke he's designing for, Mik's come up with exactly what I've been lusting for as well. Clever chappy our Mik. Hell, I'm even tempted to listen to him when he tells me I'm doing it wrong now :eek:

Richard

Actually Dingo,

You realise now that you are looking at a Yawlboat.

Or closer - A Ship's Yawlboat.

So maybe Dingo it will fit in very nicely indeedy with your next project. Look splendid looking from the poop down to the yawlboat sitting on stocks on the main weather deck.

Oh me heartys.

Sure there will be a spare cabin for Ship's Carpenter Mr Spurling. Or if you are filled with paying passengers he will be happy to be #2 on the port watch. He will know sailing well enough by then. Hope those fo'c's'le deck seams are well payed.

Looks like both of your boats will have to be finished at the same time!

Now - there's some pressure.

The attachment is to show what a little corker this boat is - the person shown is a little bit shorter than Richard, but has the same spherical butt*cks.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Sure there will be a spare cabin for Ship's Carpenter Mr Spurling. Or if you are filled with paying passengers he will be happy to be #2 on the port watch. He will know sailing well enough by then. Hope those fo'c's'le deck seams are well payed.

Sorry, the dog's got the cabin. But if that nice Mr Dingo would like to bring his 12 guage, he can sign on as gunner :eek: especially if I get her ready for the PuddleDuck racing at Goolwa next year

Richard

Oops, silly me. Mik was talking about SHANE's boat

Doesn't matter, the dog'd probably get my cabin anyway

Richard

Richard,

That looks like she'll be a lovely little boat to sail - even if she isn't a yawl

The following two statements are True for Yellowtail

She is a ketch
She is a yawl

The following two statements are false
She is not a ketch
She is not a yawl.

Tee Hee.

And I can prove it!

MIK

Aha! a demountable rudder post!

No - the reason is that Ketch and Yawl refer to different things historically.

They only got confused with their use in rating rules. Why should a mast moved an inch turn a boat from a Ketch to a Yawl.

All sailing terms are highly function based - why does Ketch/Yawl draw this arbitrary and meaningless line - the boat doesn't suddenly handle differently - and from 40 ft away you can't tell the difference (if it is just an inch).

Brig and Brigantine is deadly precise. Board the Brig, sink the Brigantine and the guy knows he will be understood. Sink the ketch, save the yawl and the crew will look at him like he's an idiot.

The marginal differences between ketch and yawl used to bug me hugely until I read some articles written by L.F. Herreshoff. Richard gives the correct explanation. Above.

A Yawl is a ship's boat resembling the pinnace

Read that bit carefully and you are on your way toward having a sparkling subject for dinner conversation!

If you want me to fill in the details I can. Hey Dingo - do you know about this one? It's sorta fun - a bit like "How many ropes are there on a boat?"

MIK hohohohoho

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Read that bit carefully and you are on your way toward having a sparkling subject for dinner conversation!

Hi BoatMik,

I stand corrected Sir! It's just that pretty much everything that I've heard or read has suggested that if the mizzen is abaft the rudder then the boat's a yawl, else it's a ketch (other conditions allowing). It must be the ratings issue that you mention.

As to a dinner table subject - only at a YC supper methinks

Nah - you can make anyone's eyes glaze over with this sort of stuff.

To me it's sport!

As you can tell from my mammoth posts in Dingo's "Wanted" thread!!!

It is an interesting bit of history though. The Yawl is a hull size and hull function that gave it's name to the rig that was sometimes carried - a rig that kept the masts out at either end so the middle of the boat can be used for oarspeople and/or cargo.

Whereas a ketch - doesn't quite have as much pressure to get that mizzen aft because the boat is often quite a bit bigger.

Note that you can only step the mizzen aft of the rudder post if there is some boat there - most traditional sailing workboats have had stern hung rudders - so we can't blame them for the modern distinction.

My feeling is that you have to go to racing rules - starting in he mid to late 1800s. There were time allowance systems that required some estimation of the power of a sailplan. The more forward you step the mizzen the bigger it can be without upsetting the boat balance - the torque or moment operates though a smaller lever.

So for a sloop you would multiply the sail area by 100%
For a boat with a biggish mizzen multiply the sail on the mainmast by 100% and that on the after mast by 70% (now let's try to think of a name for that sort of boat)
For a boat with a small mizzen the mizzen gets counted in at 40% (and what will be call that).

So I suspect that the afore or abaft the rudderpost is exactly the sort of meaningless dribble that comes out of the mouths of legalistic types. They just stole existing terms and consquently made them lose their real meanings

Not - aRRRRRRRRRRRR - seafaring types like us lot. Wher'd I put me cutlass - its time to cook dinner aRRRRRRRRRRR.

MIK

By the way - ANZWERS has the common definition of ketch but adds

[Middle English cache, from cacchen, to catch. See catch.]

Its just the common rig on a fishing boat.

So now Yellowtail is definitely both a ketch and a yawl.

MIK

If you going to have a mizzen mast sail etc whats the difference than having a jib that runs up youre fore stay gives you more control and your talking about using it to learn to sail a main and jib is a lot easier solution than getting a crik in your neck looking a wear youve been not where you are going with all the rig forward of the helm. A boat the size of yellowtail will not need winches for the jib just jib sheets back to cleats. Access dingies have a jib mounted on a unstayed jib pole that is mounted in tube at the bow to furl the jib in the pole rotates and jib rolls up on it mainsail has the same operation simple jib pole and mast are aluminium tube and access dingies are 10' long sail area is 6 sqm. Its the same old story someone comes up with a good design that works and then someone tries to reinvent the wheel so to speak. I am really starting to wonder about you Richard I see a little more madness creeping in maybe you have bimastal syndrome.

Howdy Stephen,

A good post on your part bringing up the usual objections to these types of traditional rigs. I have been wanting to write something about this to add to my website for some time - so you have given me the chance!!!

Jibs have a number of disadvantages.

1/ Cost - having a jib on a forestay means that you need side stays to keep tension in the jibstay. You also need two sets of sheeting points either side of the boat with expensive cleats - possibly tracks - if you want to be able to reduce the amount of power in stronger winds by moving the sheeting position back - plus the expense of an extra sail (because to get the nice handling qualities you will still need the mizzen - see below for why)

2/ Slow rigging. Boats without jibs are much faster to rig - you just drop the mast in its hole and hoist the mainsail. With Richard's mizzen it is already lashed to the mast - so you just drop the sail in and attach the boom. The sort of rig that Richard has will take about 10 to 15 minutes from pulling up to sliding the boat into the water. (By the way my background is with boats with jibs - From Herons, through NS14s to Sharpies to yachts - and these traditional rigs are much faster to get underway.

3/ Structural loads and simple hull construction - having a jib and sidestays adds a huge amount of load to the boat. The windward stay and forestay often carry tensions similar to the displacement of the boat including crew. This tension is balanced by the compression load in the mast. So the stays are pulling up and the mast is pushing down - this means that quite a bit of effort has to be made to resolve the load in the hull.

With a free standing rig there is little compression load and no stays for tension loads. The hull has a much easier time of it - simplifying construction.

The engineering of the mast is simple - bending load only needs to be considered rather than the tricky problems of dealing with compression and buckling - this makes it easy to engineer a free standing mast so it will never break. And the loads in the hull can be dissipated with minimal modifications to the deck (already perfectly set up to take the side loads of the mast) and the gluing of a single block with a mortice cut in it to the stem/keel structure.

4/ With a stayed rig - count all the bits that can dismast the boat. There are dozens of components that can break and dismast the boat. Shackles, chainplates, swages, vernier adjustors, lashings, turnbuckles. Any single one breaks or comes undone - and you are floundering.

That all these components can be so reliable these days is fantastic - but it comes at a price - the high strength and reliability is expensive. Richard's boat will need none of these bits.

4/ The jib is a pain if the crew is inexperienced. With Richard's boat even with a boatfull of passengers he will be able to push the helm down and tack without anyone having to touch a rope. You can organise a jib to do the same - but the gear to do it is REALLY expensive.

5/ A boat with a mizzen has a wonderful capacity to sit calmly head to wind. Just ease the main and pull on the mizzen and the boat will sit happily head to wind. This can give the crew time to sort out a problem (starting the outboard?), reef or just sit happily drinking tea without the boat heeling all over the place. When at anchor often sloop rigged boats will blow around a fair bit - if this happens with Richard's boat he can just pull up the mizzen and the boat will sit happily.

6/ Jibs are bad sails in strong winds - they flap and shake and attempt to tear themselves to pieces. If you have a racing dinghy - and are a little bit serious - mainsails tend to last a couple of seasons, but jibs will flap themselves out of shape in one. Jibs get much more wear and tear.

7/ Reefing - Richards boat has a couple of deep reefs in the main. The mizzen will very likely never need to be reefed. You can make the boat balance nicely by just trimming the mizzen to balance whatever amount of main is up.

With a sloop the rig goes out of balance whatever you decide to do - furl the jib or reef the main. (in fact the best solution for balance is to get rid of the jib and deep reef the main which brings the centre of effort of the sails back over the centreboard - but you have to get rid of most of the sail to do it which means the boat can be underpowered.

8/ Reefing part 2 - You cant use lazyjacks with jibs. Lazy jacks are the greatest thing for a crusing sailor. YOu can use them on any boomed sail - the lazyjacks run from most of the way up the mast down to the boom on both sides of the sail. If you drop the sail the lazyjacks support the boom and guide the dropped sail to sit on top of the boom. Just drop the sail - nothing else to do. - it is controlled at every point on the way down

To get the jib down you either have to drop it (and go up to the very bow of the boat to stop it from blowing over the side or to unhank it) or furl it around the forestay (expensive gear indeed if you want to make this work).

9/ Performance - The rigs on my Goat Island Skiff (GIS) and BETH Sailing canoe are balance lugs - like the mainsail on Richard's boat.

I can almost race my Beth around a real club racing course equal with a Laser. The GIS will be beaten by a TASER but not embarrassingly so (the TASER is one of the fastest two person non trapeze dinghies around - it sails very close to the speed of a trapeze dinghy).

My feeling is that the bad press for the performance of tradtional rigs was because of stretch in the rigging. Modern ropes like spectra and vectran have very little stretch and I always stipulate them for use in the halyards.

But lets say Beth has 5% less performance than a laser or the GIS has 5 to 8% less performance than the TASER (this is for real races around a real sailling course - not just sailing alongside for a few hundred metres) - it all comes into perspective when you find out the rig for the laser is about 3 times the cost of Beth's and that you can rig the GIS for the price of a Taser Mast (after you count all the other bits that are required to make the Taser's sloop rig work you are around $2500 better off with the GIS).

10 - Bigger Boats and Sail Expense. As you move up in size it becomes almost irresistable with sloops to have a number of different headsails for different conditions. Big ones for light wind and small ones for heavy winds.

So we see yachts with wardrobes of a single mainsail and maybe about 3 to six headsails (not including spinnakers) - Expense, Expense, Expense. A couple of decades ago a boat might carry 10 headsails - but improvements in sailcloth, design, understandng of how sails really work and the rating rules becoming more rationally based have worked to reduce the size of the wardrobe for a particular yacht to a fair degree

The designer's thinking is to draw a sailplan that looks underpowered in the light of a certain rule - then add bigger sails to make the boat perform OK in lighter winds. So you end up with a wardrobe full of sails

The traditional thinking has always been to put enough sail on the boat to make it sail well in light winds but have efficient reefing systems (at least on inshore and coastal boats) to reduce the sail as the wind comes up. So the boat will sail well across a range of conditions with its original two sails.

11/ Inefficiency of a Sloop downwind. On a broad reach or run the jib always flops around uselessly most of the time unless you pole it out - so even though you may have paid for 100 square feet of sail you will be using only 70 of those feet downwind. Poling it out is not an easy process in stronger winds and requires some co-ordination between skipper and crew. And the boat is not free to manouvre much once the pole is set - you have to pull the pole down to go up on to a reach or gybe or tack.

Of course you can improve the performance of a sloop with a spinnaker, but don't start me on the inefficiency, crew effort and co-ordination and expenditure that is necessary with spinnakers. Anyway I have passed spinnakered boats many times in the unstayed Norwalk Island Sharpie Ketches - again in real races. Passing dozens of them. Richard's rig will be just about as efficient downwind as the NISs
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When I would Choose a Sloop Rig - basically the only reasons I can see are

1/ to fit in with an existing class or set of rules (which still treat sloops favourably - allowing you to have area in the jib that is not counted when the total is counted for handicapping )

2/ I like the look of sloop rigs on modern boats - particularly as they move to shorter footed jibs and big fully battened mains - much better for performance and handling - and reduce the number of jibs on bigger boats to perhaps 3 - while maintaining performance.

3/ If you want the last 5% of performance upwind and can afford the extra sails or equipment to make them perform downwind.
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And you don't get much of a "crick in your neck" with a mizzen because you don't have to change the trim of the mizzen much. And you don't have to look at it to know how it trims.

Its purpose is as a balancing sail upwind. So if your boat has too much weather helm you just ease the mizzen a bit or if too much lee helm you just tighten it a bit. You feel what you need by the tiller pressure and just adjust the mizzen to give you what you want.

Downwind you really only have to alter its trim for major course or wind direction changes - and sometimes to balance the helm too if it is oversheeted and causing the boat to round up.

I just have a texta mark on Beth's mizzen which I trim to upwind - and I don't have to touch it when I tack. Much nicer than having to muck around with jib sheets ) or having to pay for all the extra gear you need to make a self tacking jib work efficiently.

Best Regards

Michael Storer