Thread: Plans & Kits

Welcome Borneogoat.
If it were me starting over with your intentions, out of those listed I'd have the Goat any day. Look at the back up you'd get from fellow builders (and the designer) on this forum, it is the quickest of those listed I think, but would still take more than you might imagine to do nicely. Perfect build and sail trainer. It is also an example of very sophisticated design (it just looks easy), and a sort of modern refinement of a traditional skiff idea.

Here's another reason. It and boats like it are more likely to get sailing back into the realms of ordinary people who maybe would have sailed but don't because everything is now so technical, expensive and competition-oriented. So having one might influence others to have a bit of simple fun and get away from the television....

The GIS seems a good option. I have purchased the plans and the How to Build manual with it is fantastic. Worth a chunk of money, even if I build something else. Can anybody comment on the how it handles weather? Obviously, I wouldn't intentional take a GIS out in 30kt winds, but I live in Tasmania and its easy to get caught out....

Any GIS builders/owners listening from Tas?

Check Mik's sub-forum and maybe do a search, but there are certainly goats all over the place, including UK and Holland and USA. No small boat will be useful in bad weather in anything but somewhat protected waters- ie stay close to the coast and learn how to shorten sail to match the weather. But that will apply even to trailer sailers of somewhat bigger size too!

Mik will have something to say I'm sure, but he has a lot on at the moment I think.
Glad you bought the plans. Have a look at some of the goat builds in the Storer forum.
Rob

as Rob has pointed out the goat would be a great first boat to build because of the back up and all the other threads on here that you can look at for help and inperation.

but don't expect to be sailing in a few months it will take longer than you think, the hull will come together in no time at all but it's the finishing that takes to longest to do.

Its difficult to build a ply lapstrake boat quickly. You need to factor in Epoxy curing time. There are many "5 min" jobs on when building a boat, but you usually have to wait a whole day for the epoxy to harden, before you can get onto the next 5 min job.
So if you want to complete a boat in a few months, then go for a simple design. If the GIS doesn't take you fancy, then maybe check-out some of Phil Bolger's designs, he and MIK have a similar approach to boat design.
Something like a Long-Micro might be what you are after, but don't expect a speed demon.

Borneogoat -

Welcome to the madness...

I'm building a Goat Island Skiff. It is my first boat building project and I looked at a lot of plans before picking the GIS. Great looking boat, relatively simple design - but that simplicity really took some sophistication and refinement.

I can't help you with a sailing report in big water and high winds for a couple of reasons: My boat isn't done yet, and the only time I've sailed on a GIS (Oregon this past September - Mik at the helm) conditions were not extreme. I'm in California, USA, close to San Francisco Bay. I expect to sail my Goat there, but not in extreme conditions.

I started my project in April of this year and expect to be sailing in March. I could have sped that timetable up, but something always seems to pop up to interfere with my plans. One thing I am learning - building to a strict schedule is a bad idea - causes nothing but mistakes and do-overs.

By the way, four years ago I swore I couldn't build a boat. Two years ago I thought, well, maybe. And now I am building a boat and thinking about what I want to build next!

My feeling is, you really can't go wrong with the decision to build a Goat.

I disagree in that glued lapstrake isn't a fast building method. If it's done properly it is fast and very light weight too. In fact, lighter then all other methods, unless you use fancy high tech fabrics and foams. If you glue each plank one by one you'll make a career out of the build. It's generally wise to temporarily screw the planks in place and do the glue job one side (or whole boat) at a time.

I'm not convinced the GIS is the most suitable boat for the sailing area. I think a boat with more freeboard would be a better choice. Possibly a small cuddy (a dodger at least) and self draining cockpit would be considerations as well. Though the canal you're on will be fairly protected, you don't have to go far to get into open water with a reputation for kicking sailor butt.


Murphy, the design selection process can be as painful as the build itself, after smacking the crap out of your thumb with a hammer. So many choices, so many designers. I think it's important to select from an "engaged" designer and take your time. A designer that answers his phone, is helpful and offers a complete set of plans. You may find a great boat from a low cost or free web site, but most of the time the designer is dead or not available, the plans not complete or very specific and you have no one to call if you have a question. This is one of the things that makes Michael Storer designs a good choice. He's engaged and participating and he has that cool Aussie accent too.

With the advent of things like Skype, communications are no longer an issue. Select a design with an approachable designer. One phone call can solve a dozen issues and the importance of this can't be under estimated.

Originally Posted by PAR

I disagree in that glued lapstrake isn't a fast building method. If it's done properly it is fast and very light weight too. In fact, lighter then all other methods, unless you use fancy high tech fabrics and foams. If you glue each plank one by one you'll make a career out of the build. It's generally wise to temporarily screw the planks in place and do the glue job one side (or whole boat) at a time.

I with Paul on this one.
At TAFE, we were doing one pair of planks a night - arrive, pull out the screws from the previous one, make a pattern for the new plank, cut and shape it, then glue them on - only you do both sides at once (same pattern for both, shape them screwed together so they're identical). There's a lot of mucking about with the first planks as you learn the trade but it becomes almost boring after a few.

The other thing that people forget is that the actual hull construction is a surprisingly small part of the overall build and that fitting and finishing are the big time consumers.

There are always lots of things to make while glue dries - this is the one flaw with the 'make a kit of bits first' approach, it doesn't leave you all those extra things to make while the glue dries.

Besides, few amateurs build these boats in one big rush, though it does happen. Richard (honkongphoie) built his Yellowtail (lapstrake) in less time than most people build Goat Island Skiffs, not because the method is faster but because he got into it and kept making stuff. That's the real secret.

Just build the hull design you want and forget all the fluff about my way is easier/faster/smarter/cooler.

Richard

Originally Posted by Daddles

The other thing that people forget is that the actual hull construction is a surprisingly small part of the overall build and that fitting and finishing are the big time consumers.
Richard

I'll agree with you on that one.

I guess when comparing building methods you need to keep things in perspective.
The amount of effort to attach 1 set of planks to a ply-lapstrake boat would be similar to the amount of effort to attach the sides on a GIS. Never built a GIS, so I'm only guessing. (of course I'm only assuming that you also have the backbone and moulds already cut out and setup for your ply-lapstrake boat).

Also remember that we are talking to a 1st time builder here.
We don't know what the workshop arranges are like so the 'make a kit of bits first' might first might be the only approach suitable. Hulls tend to take up a lot of space, 'possibly', leaving little room for such things as Mast Building.

I also agree with PAR, the GIS is not suitable for the type of waters in mention. That is why I suggested the Long-Micro. I'm sure that there are many other designs that may be suitable. I'm sure Borneogoat is only happy to hear suggestions from people.

Cheers

Originally Posted by Mickj

I'll agree with you on that one.

I guess when comparing building methods you need to keep things in perspective.
The amount of effort to attach 1 set of planks to a ply-lapstrake boat would be similar to the amount of effort to attach the sides on a GIS. Never built a GIS, so I'm only guessing. (of course I'm only assuming that you also have the backbone and moulds already cut out and setup for your ply-lapstrake boat).

Also remember that we are talking to a 1st time builder here.
We don't know what the workshop arranges are like so the 'make a kit of bits first' might first might be the only approach suitable. Hulls tend to take up a lot of space, 'possibly', leaving little room for such things as Mast Building.

I also agree with PAR, the GIS is not suitable for the type of waters in mention. That is why I suggested the Long-Micro. I'm sure that there are many other designs that may be suitable. I'm sure Borneogoat is only happy to hear suggestions from people.

Cheers

The big disadvantage with a boat that needs to be built on a strongback, is that it's stationary for quite some time. Mind you, the Little Black Dog, one of the 'instant' breed, just spent quite some time locked in one place because I was trying to get it flat and spend an extraordinary amount of time pfaffing about with seats and stuff. But you're right in your suggestion that the best form of construction depends a lot on your circumstances. On the other hand, building the stupid thing is such a small part of the life of the boat that you need to be absolutely sure that you don't compromise using the thing for 'advantages' in building her in the first place. My feel is that if you're in love with the end product, the journey getting there is transient and largely irrelevant ... though like a fight with the missus, it won't feel like it at the time

Richard

Howdy,

Regarding the Goat, I would probably agree with PAR to some extent, but I think that maybe you are taking quite a big step up the food chain with the first boat you are building if the boat you want is the second one you build.

A good reason to build a first boat is to have something to go sailing in while you are building the big one. I think you are choosing a boat that is much too big at 18 to 20ft. Then add higher topsides and a cuddy cabin and it just becomes way to much building for the aim.

From my range I would almost be suggesting the PDGoose (I don't normally make direct suggestions about my plans, but considering you have the Goat plans already and the discussion is going that way, I will stick my oar in)

The hull is very simplified over most boats and it is not meant to be "flash" which means you can get away with a lot of second grade buidling material. With the Goat or another nice boat, you should build of premium material.

The methods are the same and if the 12ft PDGoose is as nuggety as the 8ft PDR you will be able to do a lot of rough weather sailing. If the Goose capsizes it will come back upright with no water aboard. All the epoxy and staging (order of building) stuff is the same for the PDR type boats as it is for The coolest boat you can imagine, but you can trim a lot of cost and a lot of worry out of it.

But by the time you go up to 18 or 20 ft there is already an awful lot of building involved unless the boat is much simplified. Cabins, self draining cockpits and modern sailing rigs all add a lot of expense too.

I would probably suggest either pushing the size and complication of the boat right down and accepting that it is not going to do exactly what you want, but the boat will be useful for short sails (compared to a coastal cruiser) while you build the big one.

Or just go ahead and build the big one. These days there is probably little reason at all to build a smaller boat as a stepping stone unless you really want to. The methods are the same ... so why not cut to the chase?

Best wishes
Michael

Originally Posted by Daddles

I with Paul on this one.
At TAFE, we were doing one pair of planks a night - arrive, pull out the screws from the previous one, make a pattern for the new plank, cut and shape it, then glue them on - only you do both sides at once (same pattern for both, shape them screwed together so they're identical). There's a lot of mucking about with the first planks as you learn the trade but it becomes almost boring after a few.

Richard

I Will see you and raise you five.

At the Duckflat Spring School we have a 10 day period to get the boats together. If you look at my photo sets and go up towards the end you can see the relative speeds of building the boats. Duckflat boat building schools

Sheet plywood kills everything else if it is well designed. You can pretty well build a Goat or PDRacer hull in the time and get the centreboard and rudder laminated and the mast built.

The second fastest method is the glued lap. Most boats in the class are Oughtred designs and the thoughtfulness and degree of documentation makes them efficient in terms of building the hull shell. But because of the strongback and the initial hurdles of learning the details of fitting planks it does take a little while to get the hang of it. So usually in the 10 days the hull shell can be finished and maybe a couple of bulkheads fitted.

The next bit was what I wanted to add to Daddle's comment.

However the idea of fitting a plank a side and walking away would make the work flow impossible. We use a lot of temporary fastenings and the students work through to about 2.30pm each day making as many planks as they can with the planks being held in place by fasteners only.

Then they take them off at around 2.30 and start putting glue down and putting the planks back on using screws in the same screw holes (you need to mark the right ones on both the plank and the jig). Some of the good workers might get 4 to 6 planks on in a day (totalling both sides) but that admittedly is pretty rare because they get caught up with some of the problems solving required - and getting the bevelling for the stem and stern right - it is a tricky job for a first time builder both conceptually and in terms of the labour. Some of those stems are an awful lot of planing.

But the lap boats usually get the shell built, but a good team will be able to get spars done too (if there are not tooooooo many). But I would agree with both PAR that it is a fast method and produces a great result and also would emphasise Daddles' point about it becoming almost boring (in a good way) when working out the shape for the fourth plank.

Ply boats over a strongback and strip planked boats take a lot of time. in the classes the strip plank boats might get fully planked up and the outside faired and glassed. They are not really so practical in the class, particularly if the canoe has to be taken interstate (though some leave the boat and come back next time).

Best wishes
Michael

Originally Posted by PAR

I'm not convinced the GIS is the most suitable boat for the sailing area. I think a boat with more freeboard would be a better choice. Possibly a small cuddy (a dodger at least) and self draining cockpit would be considerations as well. Though the canal you're on will be fairly protected, you don't have to go far to get into open water with a reputation for kicking sailor butt.

Thanks everyone for weighing in. The statement by PAR is an critical one for my situation. He knows from personal email correspondence that an important criteria for me is a boat suitable to my local conditions, Tasmania and the D'Entrecasteaux Channel. For those not in the know, cold waters flowing from the Antarctic and variable winds/waves. Just last week I sailed on a Farr 1030 and we twisted/destroyed the mast during a "fun sail". Two big racing cats lost their masts this weekend, one was only 1km into the race. To venture more than a swimming distance offshore requires a boat with an appropriate design. This is why I'm hesitant on the GIS or other flat bottom boats. I might have to build a more significant build for my first or it won't get used much....

I Hope we haven't scared you off from boat building Borneogoat.
As you can see, asking a question like "what boat should I build"? is a bit like asking "which color is best"?

One thing I will say for certain, if you do go ahead and build something, then you'll get a lot of support from this site. There is a great mix of experience and talent on this site(as well as some wannabes like myself) who would be only too happy to help you out if the need arises.

Cheers