Thread: questions

Originally Posted by Clinton1

Edumacation! I'd prefer to do it by asking questions than spending scarse $ on a canoe to find out that it was a mistake.

And no better way has been devised and I for one as Im sure both Mik and Midge agree... ask you to continue asking!!

Originally Posted by Clinton1

I've been looking at designs and reading a few books - its difficult for a complete novice to work out what might suit a need. There's a lot of designs available - from curvy strip ones to flat sided/bottom ply ones. The sellers of the plans all say that their one is really good. Confusing.

And that my friend is what boat design selection is all about... from small canoes to large sea going yachts and everything between... to confuse the looker!! and keep them in a constant state of utter confusion.

The main thing you have to work out in choosing a design (well theres a few things actually) is what you intend to use it for... if you can firmly say I will bein doin.... (this or that) then you can narrow the field and then continue defining exactly what it is you want need and use and so continue narrowing the range of designs down... eventually you will find a few that meet all your needs

but yes your right it is confusing

Originally Posted by Clinton1

Anyway - My take is now that some traditional canoes (and kayaks) do have a means to impart directional stability - just that it is in the design of the ends. Cool, learnt something. Thanks!

You mean all our effort meant nothing! :eek: oooh so sad all our effort to help you and Mik gives you the one thing... oooh woe woe woe

Originally Posted by Clinton1

God, it would be nice if I could find some simple rules of thumb for what to look for!

The rule of thumb will be dictated by YOU... you know what you like you know what you will be capable of building you know what you want to use it for you know what you want to be able to expect of it... so mate you dictate the rules of thumb in what your looking for

The questions are needed to begin the process of defining... you also need to find someone with a canoe not a plastic thing but a good wooden one and a kayak and try them out... Im not saying this is going to be easy Im yet to find a wooden canoe to try out myself but then I know what I like when I see it and I know what I want to use a canoe for the areas I will be using it in etc... you need to settle an deside on what it is you want and then what it is you want it for that will define the rules of thumb

Keep asking Clinton!

See sometimes we (any of us) come to the forum with other things on our minds other people have impacted on us and we bring that with us and sometimes there may have been a negative event happen and we bring that and sometimes it overflows in our posts and that often means theres some skeptism in our posts... as I think you took some offence at some of what Mik says I think he has done that and its colored his reply a tad... dont mind it relax its not you its the questions the fact you knew somethings but were askin questions about it bought out what I thought was a bit of skeptical response... as I said we all do it from time to time... relax hes not shootin you down hes probably had a bit of a day... so keep askin the questions we all will keep giving you responses as we can

See I could have gotten my nose out of joint after all that Id written to help you and yet you only notice Mik... see? bit I didnt and dont cause I only try to help and Im not gonna be upset if you ignore me geez mate I get ignored by her bloody highness 9 times out of 10 so hows your ignorein me gonna hurt eh? HA!

Go to the library get out the books Gil Gilkinsons Mac McCarthys Ted Moores and the others and id be surprised if the answers arent in them

Wild Dingo -
Thank you, thank you, what do you mean - i paid attention to you!!

I wasn't offended by Mik's 'hard lesson' comment- I really appreciate his time and effort.
I just didn't want anyone to think that a beginner/novice was thinking that he'd build a first canoe, and make big changes and 'kick everyones ####".

Maybe Mik sees that happen in his job - being a designer and all, I assume he'd spend a lot of time listening to people talk about what they think should be modified, instead of letting him get on with his job.
I reckon Mik might get blamed for the failure of those mods too!

In my tongue tied way I was trying to ensure that I didn't appear to be an arrogant idiot!
Hopei didn't come across that way. :confused:

Nah Clinton no worries... got questions that need askin but have some probs puttin the question into words thats normal ... well for me anyways and its why it takes me friggin ages to say what I want to say... that and tryin to make what Im tryin to say clear as possible so no doubt or confusion is out there

trouble with that is it gets so friggin long winded people can get f'...ed of with me and mate thats a real pain in the proverbial

I guess to me and most of us its best if anyones got questions about anything to simply ask them... as someone once said "only dumb question is the question thats not asked" so ask away

Cheers

Originally Posted by Clinton1

Wild Dingo -
Thank you, thank you, what do you mean - i paid attention to you!!

I wasn't offended by Mik's 'hard lesson' comment- I really appreciate his time and effort.
I just didn't want anyone to think that a beginner/novice was thinking that he'd build a first canoe, and make big changes and 'kick everyones ####".

Maybe Mik sees that happen in his job - being a designer and all, I assume he'd spend a lot of time listening to people talk about what they think should be modified, instead of letting him get on with his job.
I reckon Mik might get blamed for the failure of those mods too!

In my tongue tied way I was trying to ensure that I didn't appear to be an arrogant idiot!
Hopei didn't come across that way. :confused:

Ditto for me - I was trying to get the thinking down to basics while attempting a jocular, somewhat preachy tone.

Hmmmmmmmm - obviously didn't come off!

Sorry guys.

MIK

Ok - lets agree to blame Biting Midge (cause he hasn't put his oar in for a while) and get on with it!

Mik,
can you talk to me about the difference in 'through water performance' between your ply mould canoe/boats (some of them are quite flat around the profile due to using the ply) and the same design made using strips that are shaped to a purely curved profile.

i.e. do the 'flat' ones suffer a performance loss, and is that a consequence of making the design so 'user friendly'??
OR,
Am I wrongly assuming that there is a performance differance?

Anyone notice the nice 'boaty' pun ??

Edit: maybe flat is not the right word - angular??

Since it's my fault! And to skip your last question:

Originally Posted by Clinton1

The sellers of the plans all say that their one is really good. Confusing.

Sadly that is a big problem.

Boat "A" is sold as the best boat in the world, and is really a dog, but no-one who buys/builds one has any other experience, so all believe it to be the case. Life imitates the advertisers art. The users never seem to question how it is that Boat "B" sails past them, it's crew arrive happier, rig easier etc etc etc.

Boat "B" on the other hand, (and I think the Goat Island Skiff is one of these) is very low key, never attracts too much publicity, yet sails rings round any of the imitators making all the noise.

The best way of learning is to get out there and do it. Once you are out on the water, you will start to notice things, go for rides in other people's boats, find out what the differences are. You can learn what to look for in books, but you won't appreciate what it means till you are out there.

Be wary of anyone with fixed ideas. "Seaworthiness" to some, means building an anachronistically heavy boat with a long keel (no offense Dingo), while to others (me) it means building light, strong, fast.

I happen to enjoy being in a warm bed at the end of a long sail, while the owners of other "more seaworthy" boats are out there for another day or two enjoying their "seaworthiness." Who is right? What do you want to achieve for yourself?

Mik knows this stuff because as much as anything else he's experienced it. He has the book learning, and a very finely developed instinct as well, but mostly he can tell you what works because he's been there before.

All of the best designers are out there doing it on anything that floats, constantly experiencing other designs as a means of evaluating their own (and finding fodder for plagiarism I guess!).

The only way to learn is to do the same, don't spend forever analysing, get something to use as a starting point, realising that it is the bottom step (who knows, you may luck in and get it close to right first time!), and then evaluate from there. It's so much more fun when you can analyse something first hand, make changes and go again!

I'm not dismissing your questioning by the way, just trying to make the point that it will be easier to understand the responses when you have a little more experience as well.

Cheers,

P

Howdy Clinton,

Happy to oblige - just did a much longer post and dammit - it got eaten up.

Ok this is my view on strip vs ply.

If fibreglass canoes (in general - and in Australia - there is more choice overseas) were not so bloody awful to paddle and so heavy there would be little place for a ply canoe except as a fast building compromise type

The classic timber boats are pretty near perfect in terms of speed, weight, paddling and load carrying.

My Eureka canoes are an attempt to get as close to this as possible in a plywood boat coming out of 2 sheets.



As you can see the "fin" (normally called a hollow entry) is there and it smooths nicely into a weight bearing midsection. You can see a similar transition in this pic of my Wee Lassie



Note how the volume of the Lassie's mid body moves upward as your eye moves out to the ends of the boat.

This can sorta be acheived in plywood, but there is not as much freedom to really get the shape that would be ideal. You can see that the Weel Lassie takes it to an extreme which just can't be acheived with ply to the same extent

There is also some drag from the chines.

BUT, BUT, BUT
At somewhere between half and a third of the weight of a fibreglass canoe and with some of the features of the classic canoes and the ease of building - then there is a place for a good ply boat.

Won't be quite up to the stripper, (people are going to be so disappointed if they Google "stripper" and get this page!) but will still cream (haha) the average glass boat.

Just to remind us all of what I am talking the attached pic below is of a pretty standard glass boat - the hullshape is just a blob. They make a great play in their advertising bumph that "has an external keel running the full length which allows it to track straight".

Sigh.

If you look at the pics of the Wee Lassie and the Eureka and compare to the glass boat below - your eyes will tell you that the performance of the Eureka will be much closer to that of the classic canoe than it will be to the glass canoe.

Eyes are really important in understanding boats!

Best Regards
MIK

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

Since it's my fault! And to skip your last question:


Sadly that is a big problem.

Boat "A" is sold as the best boat in the world, and is really a dog, but no-one who buys/builds one has any other experience, so all believe it to be the case. Life imitates the advertisers art. The users never seem to question how it is that Boat "B" sails past them, it's crew arrive happier, rig easier etc etc etc.

Boat "B" on the other hand, (and I think the Goat Island Skiff is one of these) is very low key, never attracts too much publicity, yet sails rings round any of the imitators making all the noise.

Im thinkin subtle midgey here... somewhere Im remebering a discourse on Wharrams... yes yes thats it a subtle play on words without bein specific!! WELL DONE midgy! point taken

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

The best way of learning is to get out there and do it. Once you are out on the water, you will start to notice things, go for rides in other people's boats, find out what the differences are. You can learn what to look for in books, but you won't appreciate what it means till you are out there.

Were repeating ourselves mate... the twins strike!

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

Be wary of anyone with fixed ideas. "Seaworthiness" to some, means building an anachronistically heavy boat with a long keel (no offense Dingo), while to others (me) it means building light, strong, fast.

ooooh right mate no offence but with reference you mean me!! oooh mate how well ye know me! HOWEVER!!... while tis true I have a penchant for large boats made heavy for over the horizon sailing I must admit Ive not finished looking and some Im looking at are quite small quite light and well maybe fast depending on wind factors and such... see mate Im also presently in the processes of building (and I do use that term rather loosely considering where Im at with it) an 18ft Norse boat which should be reasonbly light strong and fast and a 16ft Weekender a ply boat which I really think has a good look about her... and Ive also bought and am waiting for the plans for Bolgers St. Valery and am presently arguing with her bloody highness who is trying to cadge her way out of our agreement :mad: for the money for Cinema from David Payne... so you see mate none of those are over 20ft all are pretty light builds and well... Im not like that!! :eek: stop pickin on me!!

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

Mik knows this stuff because as much as anything else he's experienced it. He has the book learning, and a very finely developed instinct as well, but mostly he can tell you what works because he's been there before.

All of the best designers are out there doing it on anything that floats, constantly experiencing other designs as a means of evaluating their own (and finding fodder for plagiarism I guess!).

Strewth mate smile when you say that!!! Plagiarism indeed!! What will Mik say??? :eek:

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

The only way to learn is to do the same, don't spend forever analysing, get something to use as a starting point, realising that it is the bottom step (who knows, you may luck in and get it close to right first time!), and then evaluate from there. It's so much more fun when you can analyse something first hand, make changes and go again!

I'm not dismissing your questioning by the way, just trying to make the point that it will be easier to understand the responses when you have a little more experience as well.

Cheers,

P

Questioning is good... questioning is good... mantra of a 5 year questioning bloke

Clinton even though Im having a bit of a lighthearted go at our midgey mate hes on the money... and one thing I know about is questioning boats trouble with it is you can become focused on the questions and become confused by the sheer plethoria of design choices available now with the internet... okay were talking canoes here and one would think theres only a few ways to build a canoe right? right but there are so many near canoe boats that people will suggest to you to have a look at and in your questioning nature you will go have a look at them actually heres a real nice one plans available from Flatducks youve got Iain Oughtreds McGregor Wee Rob and Beaver then theyve got CLCs plans then Bear Mountains designs and so it goes... this will lead your questioning mind further and further and further till suddenly one day you will wonder what the hell your doing thinking of building a ruddy great 40ft schooner when all you really ever wanted is a small canoe and a small trailerable fishing boat of some discription dont bloody ask!

Question to your hearts content but Dont loose sight of what you want is all Im saying... its not hard to loose sight and in so doing loose 5 years to the questions! As has been said look around find something to try ask questions and do something

oh and mate? good luck!

More on Eyes and Plagiarism

One other area where glass boats fall down badly is that because they are generally marketing driven - ie have to look like canoes rather than be canoes they tend to exaggerate canoe features.

They almost all have the sheerline sweeping up into a high bow.

All it does is add weight and catch the wind - giving that poor overworked keel that they tout in their ads even more to do in terms of directional stability.

When I built the Balsa Wee Lassie I noticed that when put upside down on the floor the boat would tip over onto one gunwale. That gunwale lay flat along the floor its whole length apart from some fluctuations caused by my building skills.

Since then I have always drawn my canoe sheerlines in that way. It does mean that getting the width of the boat right at different points is rather critical to the appearance of the sheerline - but it does give the boat a lovely appearance.



There may be times in the future when I depart from this scheme, but for a general use boat it seems just about perfect.

And I can't really take any credit apart from grasping the significance of what I saw with my eyes. The real work was done by J Henry Rushton before 1900.

MIK

Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

plans available from Flatducks youve got Iain Oughtreds McGregor Wee Rob and Beaver then theyve got CLCs plans then Bear Mountains designs and so it goes...

oh and mate? good luck!

There is a lot of choice out there - but the learning only really starts when you have built and have used boats - which even Dingo and Midge have done (how is that Eureka going Midge?).

One of the big problems is perfectionism - looking for the perfect boat - no such thing. Every boat is a step along the way and every boat is perfect in its own terms - so long as the designer has done a half decent job!

The basic question I always ask people when they say they want to build a boat is which is more important.
1/ The building process
2/ The use of the boat at the end.

If the buildig process is important - go strip or clinker.

If the end use is important go ply.

If going strip consider the Chestnut Prospector out of "Canoecraft" the boat has a huge reputation earned over a century.

Or if wanting a single consider the Wee Lassie - even though some of the more recent re-inventions of the Wee Lassie have a lot less hollow in the bow than the original - watch out for this type of watering down too.

Going clinker - it is hard to beat the detail of Oughtred's plans.

Ply boats - with the preceding pics you probably have enough info to start judging them on their merits - look at the pics and see how they stack up against classic canoes.

Ha - Note I just gave you pretty much the same suggestions as Dingo!!!!!!!

MIK

who knows, you may luck in and get it close to right first time

I'm trying to get a close to that as possible, through asking questions (and using other peoples boats). I'm getting some good answers from you all.

Mik - your post will take a while for me to digest.
I think you are saying the ply canoe is a compromise.... but a damn good one? I see the sense in making the canoe/kayak out of the minimum # of ply sheets, and for that reason alone its very attractive.
I don't suppose you could put a percentage on the performance loss between "identical design, one strip, 1 ply"

Eyes - my eyes are always drawn to the really expensive options

I should add - (you blokes posted heaps I haven't read properly while I did the last reply of mine) - that due to work committments I will not be able to start building untill the beginning of 2008.
I'm committed with other things till the end of this year, then go overseas for 12 months.

My plan is -
2008 build a canoe
2008 build a kayak
(depends on $) build a Goat Island Skiff

I'm hoping that along the way someone says "that canoe/kayak looks great, how much will it cost to make me one?" to help pay for the mast/rigging/sails of the GIS.

From some research on re-sale, I think that strip might be easier to sell. I'm still deciding on that though.

Originally Posted by Clinton1

Mik - your post will take a while for me to digest.
I think you are saying the ply canoe is a compromise.... but a damn good one? I see the sense in making the canoe/kayak out of the minimum # of ply sheets, and for that reason alone its very attractive.
I don't suppose you could put a percentage on the performance loss between "identical design, one strip, 1 ply"

Nope - not possible. I've been involved in high level yacht racing - and there is a huge time and effort spent getting this sort of information - you have to be so careful.

If you are used to fibreglass canoes then try a wooden one - speak to Midge and he can put you in touch with the Qld Wooden Boat Association (I can't quite recall which participant here is directly involved in the Qld Assoc.)

In my mind the question is quite different.

It really comes down to how much building you can be bothered doing.

If you like the building process a lot - build a stripper for the ultimate in paddling performance.

If you want a boat to use with the minimum hassle on the building side - go ply - accepting that you lose a little in outright performance but you can still have a boat with good handling qualities if it has been done right.

Either boat will be a revelation after paddling an average glass boat.

MIK

Hi Guys
just a few things that I've observed in this thread while skulking around in the dark corners for expert in this game I'm not. I'll leave the answers to the experts and only offer opinions as a newby as that is where Clinton seems to be as well (at least in the boat side of things)

My plans to build a kayak out of Nick Shades book has been waylaid due to the selfish, egocentricity of a single seated kayak:mad: so I thought I'd get some practise in first ... by building a canoe for the two of us and the two lightweights (total weight of the girls about 45kg). First thought was to get it out as quick and cheaply as possible.

After research and lots of comments from Mik I believe that ply would be quicker but the cost of good quality ply is up there with the cost for timber for a stripper. In fact I just purchased enough timber to do a caone for just under $130 whereas quality ply would be about $250 ... yeah yeah I know then there's the diferential cost of f'glass vs varnish and we could go on but what I am getting down to was that the cost differential wasn't as great as I thought it might be so I decided to buy "Canoecraft" and build a stripper so as when it came down to building a Guillemot kayak it would look OK rather than a "first attempt" ... my main reasons for going stripper .. oh yeah apart from looks and the love of working with solid non-composite timber and ...

One question to Mik: I know that the prospector has proven itself for a couple of centuries but would like your comments on the RedBird design also in the Canoecraft book.
Ta