Thread: questions

Clinton,
There are a mob of websites that will illustrate the answers to your questions, one of my favourites in photographic terms at least is http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/ Ross Leidy's Kayak pages.

Click on the Wee Lassie Link and you'll get a smorgasbord of information!

The following answers will do till Boatmik finds the thread!

Originally Posted by Clinton1

For a Wooden Strip Canoe:
Stems (inner and outer) - following on from another thread where I asked about stems, do any canoe designs have a single 'inner stem', which is rebated to remove the need for an outer stem?

That could be done, but it would be a real pain. The reason that the inner stem construction is used is principally to give the strips something to adhere to at the pointy end. It's not a hard thing to do, just bung a bit of curved wood on the stem mould, and cut it to a vee that looks a bit like it will line through with the strips. Let the glue do the talking.

If I use the first mould board as a part of the structural reinforcing and to form part of the bouyancy chamber - does this remove any need for the structural reo that the stem provides. I'm assuming that the stem acts as structural reo?

The stem doesn't act as "reinforcing" in a stripper necessarily, just a means of holding it all together. It would be possible to cut the strips to length, clamp them together and run a fillet at the junction, but terribly difficult and time consuming.

Using the mould for a bulkhead is feasible, but would really make glassing the inside more of a chore than it already is, and unless you use something way heavier than it needs to be, would be difficult to do.

Think light.

Do designers use composite materials for the stems to do away with the need for bent and laid up strips of timber?

What do you mean by "composite materials"? I've only seen timber used except for a few kayaks which have neoprene "bumper" blocks tacked on like the rc racing boats.

Can the strip built canoes design the same as for a ply mould?

Probably, but why? Stripping is not an easy, cheap or particularly efficient way of building. It's there for you if you enjoy the process, or want to produce a particular hull shape, or (as in Mik's case) want to produce a lightweight special, but you have to know what you are doing to achieve that.

Ply canoes come in two varieties, the old style (heavy) framed boats with lots of flat sides, or the newer stitch and tape which rely on the shape of the ply to provide structural rigidity. (lapstrake can be of either parentage!)

So either build a nice stripper because you like the shape and want to produce a "collectable", or build quick, light and efficiently in ply!

Is there any point to putting in a small keel or something to give the canoe some stability?

There'd be a lot more point in buying a design that worked in the first place! If you mean long keel to give directional stability... if the design was right, you won't need it.

If you mean dropping a weight in like a sailing boat, no, get a wider boat!

I guess Toowoomba will turn into a sharpening and boat day eh?
Cheers,

P

Thanks 'Midge, I'll think about that a bit and see what other questions your answer raises.

Composite materials - I've been thinking about and playing with epoxy and cloth ala Cameron Potters home made micarta, and using epoxy and plane shavings or scrap veneer material (like Bridge City's Juara 'wood'). Been learing about other plastics as well.
I'm thinking that the stems could be moulded in, after the planking is laid, stapled/strapped to a mould and faired. By pouring the mould you really seal that end grain, + you can add reinforcement.

Keel: I was thinking about three things:
1. 2 or 3 inches of keel laid the length of the canoe for sideways "bite" (nice techo term!)
2. an offset keel so I can kneel in the canoe and paddle on one side only - keel balances the single side paddling.
3. I would like to be able to add a sail, and a canoe would be a dog of a shape for a sail??

Lapstrake - in my dodgy laymans terms, is that replacing the wood strips with wide ply strips? If so, I guess that was what I was getting at, using the strip design plans and using wide strips of ply instead of a sheet moulded in one or two pieces.

Originally Posted by Clinton1

Thanks 'Midge, I'll think about that a bit and see what other questions your answer raises.

Bring 'em on!

Composite materials - I've been thinking about and playing with epoxy and cloth ala Cameron Potters home made micarta, and using epoxy and plane shavings or scrap veneer material (like Bridge City's Juara 'wood'). Been learing about other plastics as well.

No. Expensive and heavy. If you want to play in plastic, build a plastic boat. No problem with that, you'll get a really light workable end result if you are clever, and could work in foam/carbon too for the wank factor!

I'm thinking that the stems could be moulded in, after the planking is laid, stapled/strapped to a mould and faired. By pouring the mould you really seal that end grain, + you can add reinforcement.

That's how kayak's get done in some cases, (refer to the above site again), but there's no need to be paranoid about the end grain. Nothing that three coats brushed on hasn't already fixed.

Keel: I was thinking about three things:
1. 2 or 3 inches of keel laid the length of the canoe for sideways "bite" (nice techo term!)

No. You'll have it going as though on rails in a straight line, but you'd have to shunt it like a train to get round any corner at all! See design comment above.

2. an offset keel so I can kneel in the canoe and paddle on one side only - keel balances the single side paddling.

No. Learn to balance. It's a canoe! Olympic canoe classes are about as light and twitchy as they come and those guys do ok without!

3. I would like to be able to add a sail, and a canoe would be a dog of a shape for a sail??

Not necessarily, poke around Mik's website if you haven't already done so, but like all things, do you want the compromise to be paddling or sailing performance?

Lapstrake - in my dodgy laymans terms, is that replacing the wood strips with wide ply strips? If so, I guess that was what I was getting at, using the strip design plans and using wide strips of ply instead of a sheet moulded in one or two pieces.

Yep, if that's what you mean, many strip plans could be used for these alternatives, from memory David Payne draws alternatives as a matter of course, and lapstrake is really an evolution of traditional clinker construction.

I'm actually considering doing a Wee Lassie like that, using my moulds built from Mac Mcarthy's book as quoted by Wild Dingo.

Note "considering" takes even more time than "starting" or heaven forbid, "finishing".

Cheers,

P

First the "ghost line" I spoke of Ive actually only found on a couple of old sets of boat plans and most of them were from the board of an American designer named Al Mason (Ive attached a pic of it) this was within the final notes in reference to larger boats not canoes in that other thread of Matts Clinton so not relevent to canoes but rather building you a larger picture regarding the sheerline you spoke of and keel plank joins



Diagonals of Sorkust



Lines plan of Sorkust the boat that the pic comes from (as can be seen once I actually had Sorkusts blueprint plans sadly now all I have are these)



Sorkust was designed in 1930 and is somewhere around 25ft LOA (length over all) so definantly not a canoe although you can see a canoe in her double ender shape

Anyway midge covers most elequently most of your questions other than the ones relating to sails

In Mac McCarthys book he actually goes into a little bit regarding placement and design of sails for the wee lassie... other things you will need are leeboards a bit more work (or centreboard a bit bit more work work degree of dificulty increased) and a tiller... a sail on a canoe isnt absolutely necessary and means a bit more work but will be fun to get around if your basically lazy or want to just tottle about takin pics fishin and stuff... its just another demension to canoeing

When Rushton created his famous canoe and travelled the many miles he did he created a small sail to make life a bit easier... theres a couple that have been "camp cruisers" for many years ie: living and camping from their canoes and boats in the states and island hopping around the caribean who wrote a book which I cant friggin find anymore who also made the leeboards and sail for their canoe named Manatou (if my memory serves also had a small catamarran at one time) so its doable and not too difficult

However as Midge says you wont need a keel as such due to the reasons he gives however you will require a centreboard or leeboards... oh leeboards are attached to the sides and a centreboard is just that you cut this hole in the middle of the boat see :eek: and make a box like affair and insert a blade of ply with some small circles of lead inserted into it to hold it down this works as a keel

Cheers

Note... sorry about the confusion regarding the "ghostline" Clinton and hope I havent confused you again

Another note... where the blazes is Mik when you need him???

Maybe Mik is actually working and not just gobbing off on the 'net, with brief moments of work, like us.

http://www.foacc.com/Disciplines/sailing.html

In the pics on the above link - The one on the left is the one I'd like, but would not be practicable. The one on the right looks really tame.
I take it the Leeboards are what is hangin off the canoe on the right of the pic in the above link?

Ok, heres a question:
Skegs and rudders are used in Kayaks, but not on Canoes. Each are subjected to the same conditions that make using a skeg/rudder a good idea on a kayak. So, why have a keel/skeg/rudder for the canoe?

Yeah go on rub it in... workin?? I WISH!!! flamin bunged knee :mad:

Miks probably muckin about with some boat or other out in the shed lucky buggar

to the questions
A)

1) The one on the left is not a canoe... well okay maybe it is but I bet its a superduper light weight flyin machine the wing hes sittin on is the only way you can stear the thing!... my view? its a racin sailing scull rather than a canoe... the one on the right is a sailing canoe

2) yes theres one leeboard on either side

B) Wrong... Kayaks and canoes are similar yes but are not subjected to the same conditions... kayaks are generally slimmer sleeker longer and faster and paddled harder while canoes are designed generally for slow paddlin in quiet waters... kayaks can take hard water surf rapids etc canoes are not designed for such... so the need in a canoe for skegs keels and rudders is negated by your paddling and movin your bum in the seat which between them controls the movement of the canoe through the water

however! as Ive said before there are always exceptions to the rule Clinton... some people I know take their canoes to some pretty hairy places and through waters they really shouldnt be paddling a canoe in (ala white water) but they do and do it well... some have made tillers and rudders that go well with the sail.

Mate if at the end of the day your after something like that speed thing on the left... go source one!... if however you want to shoot the rapids of some river or do some beach paddling find a set of plans for a kayak and go to it... however if you plan on gently muckin about on still quiet waters build a canoe if you want to include some quiet sailing then make a mast and partner and get a sail and some haliyards and go to it

Each boat design has compromises... which is why it has so far taken me over 5 years to get to a point where I can say I know which one of 3 designes Im gonna build... now if I could just work out which of those three I like most Id bloody well start!... its why its often recommended you should go and try before you decide so find a canoe club or kayak club near you and ask them if theyd mind you taggin along with them also ask if someone would mind lending you one to use or rent one for a day or so...

I built whats called a 6 hour canoe (plans sent to me by a bloke in Nebraska out of woodenboat magazine) simply a ply canoe no epoxy or fibreglass just glued and screwed heavy as shyte but mate? We had a bloody ball with canoeythingy!... it was a compromise keep waiting while getting the moulds together while getting the timbers cut and bead and coved wait while they were sanded wait while... or get on the water I chose get on the water

Yep! Mik's just finished the PDRacer plan set ready for distribution, and then to go to market!

As for the canoes in the pic: The one on the right is a sailing boat. The one on the left may not be as tame as you imagine given the size of the sail. I suspect it is set up also as a sailing boat (note the rudder) and yes that is a lee board, lifted in this case as the boat is going downwind.

Canoes and Kayaks are fundamentally different craft, balanced differently, paddled differently. Sort of like sports car vs panel van (sorry canoe enthusiasts, I couldn't find a better analogy in a hurry!)

Not all Kayaks have rudders, but since most are designed to track well, the rudders do help them to get round those darned corners!

I'm going to leave it at that in the hope that someone really technically savvy jumps in!

cheers,

P

Why is that? I mean I go to all the trouble of postin a long winded major post to explain things and along comes Midgey and in a few short sentances says exactly what I said! :eek:

man I guess the kids are right! ... I must be a gasbag!

Nah, both are canoes, just that one is an extreme version, what with the @22m2 sail and the sliding set, spinnakers and what not.
I'd like to play with that, but they only really do one thing well and I want a bit more than scary pants racing.

Here's a bit more about them, http://www.intcanoe.org/icabout.html I think WD might find a bit of info about his "Rushton/McCarthy" ones.

Thanks for answering the questions. I'll hang off asking more for a while, and see if others want to throw their answers up for the ones I've asked so far.

I don't know why you guys are waiting for me to turn up - you have put the fires out nicely.

A couple of loose threads I noted on the way through

Originally Posted by Midge

Probably, but why? Stripping is not an easy, cheap or particularly efficient way of building. It's there for you if you enjoy the process, or want to produce a particular hull shape, or (as in Mik's case) want to produce a lightweight special, but you have to know what you are doing to achieve that.

So either build a nice stripper because you like the shape and want to produce a "collectable", or build quick, light and efficiently in ply!

Agreed about almost all - but the cedar strip does allow you to work towards really effective hullshapes with hollow enough ends to give a huge amount of directional stability - which was the lesson I learned from the Balsa Wee Lassie. Great for classic canoes. It is interesting to see that a lot of the modern boats derived for stripping don't have that same amount of hollow in the stems - so are a degrade from the original[/quote]

The other thing I learned is that you can cut the density of timber by half and the thickness of the glass by 5/6ths and the boat will still be strong enough for anything the water can throuw at it. You do lose some durability as far as handling on land.

Originally Posted by Clinton

Keel: I was thinking about three things:
1. 2 or 3 inches of keel laid the length of the canoe for sideways "bite" (nice techo term!)
2. an offset keel so I can kneel in the canoe and paddle on one side only - keel balances the single side paddling.
3. I would like to be able to add a sail, and a canoe would be a dog of a shape for a sail??

1,2 Don't do it - you will ruin the canoe. The traditional designs are beautiful compromises between directional stability and manoeverability.

3 Paddling canoes can make very fast sailing boats - their only real drawback is their reluctance to change direction - OK as far as course changes and gybing but they just won't make it through a tack - just keep a paddle handy or be prepared to sail out of being in irons by sailing backward.

There are two ways of going with sailing canoes - build a more sailing oriented design or build some drop in outriggers and put a monster sail on for scorching performance. You don't need a cantreboard because the leeward outrigger will take the lateral loads. The other way is just to put a basic little rig with an integrated leeboard - see website for simple light solutions.

Originally Posted by Clinton

Skegs and rudders are used in Kayaks, but not on Canoes. Each are subjected to the same conditions that make using a skeg/rudder a good idea on a kayak. So, why have a keel/skeg/rudder for the canoe?

Kayaks are open sea boats. If using them inshore like a canoe is designed to do you don't really need a rudder for either.

Originally Posted by Dingo

1) The one on the left is not a canoe... well okay maybe it is but I bet its a superduper light weight flyin machine the wing hes sittin on is the only way you can stear the thing!... my view? its a racin sailing scull rather than a canoe... the one on the right is a sailing canoe

Both are sailing canoes - the one on the left is the International Canoe - derived from the same sort of craft that my Beth Canoe (my avatar) is based on but updated over 100 years into a serious sailing maching - until recently the fastest sailing monohull in the world.

But the downside is that both boats will be rotten paddlers compared to a classic stripper design. The one on the right will blow around horribly for a start and its leeboards might be JUST big enough to go upwind OK. It'll be a bit of a dog upwind.

Originally Posted by Dingo

you want to shoot the rapids of some river or do some beach paddling find a set of plans for a kayak and go to it... however if you plan on gently muckin about on still quiet waters build a canoe if you want to include some quiet sailing then make a mast and partner and get a sail and some haliyards and go to it

There have been a lot of seriously big rapids handled with canoes as well as kayaks - I doubt whether many kayaks got the chance to see rapids ever until recently - whereas canoes were the vessels that opened up the whole interior of Canada and the USA. Including many wild rivers.

Originally Posted by Midge

Canoes and Kayaks are fundamentally different craft, balanced differently, paddled differently. Sort of like sports car vs panel van (sorry canoe enthusiasts, I couldn't find a better analogy in a hurry!)

Dangerous waters Midge!!! Not a good analogy at all. Canoes are open - kayaks are decked. End of story.

The only forming factor is that a canoe cannot be as fine and as low in the ends at deck level as a kayak - the water would come aboard - but still quite possible to make very fast paddling canoes.

Most of the classic canoes have been designed to carry real loads or paddle beautifully laden light - Chestnut Prospector (my favourite two person canoe - reputed to carry 1000lbs of furs and still paddle nicely with only one person aboard.), Sairey Gamp, Wee Lassie. But there are some narrower ones more oriented to carrying light loads - much like sea kayaks and with similar speed.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Dangerous waters Midge!!! Not a good analogy at all. Canoes are open - kayaks are decked. End of story.

Not a good analogy at all,(I thought that at the time!) but not end of story I'm afraid.

Canoes can be decked, Kayaks can be open-decked.

Or is Beth a sailing Kayak?



P

Thanks Michael,
I was interested to see what comments came up on the International 10m2 class... its such a pity its just a 'go fast' evolution. It'd be nice if you could compromise between the two (sail/paddle) without losing so much from each aspect. I've been telling myself that this class is 'not practicable' for a while now - still want one though!

"really effective hullshapes with hollow enough ends to give a huge amount of directional stability" - sorry mate, I'm a total beginner... can you tell me what that means (and why, if possible).

Your comment about reducing the density of the timber - is that by using a less dense timber, or by using thinner strips?

The Chestnut Prospector is the strip canoe that is in the latest Aust. Woodworker - it prompted this thread. It looks nice - 4935mm (16 foot?) long and 25-27kg.
It was made from 19 x 6 mm WRC.

See now I thought some our comments would drag the old fella out of hibernation kickin and screamin

Good to see you Mik

Okay I was a bit off the cuff with the comments re the zippyzappy left hand pic ... Im the slow an easy sorta bloke to me canoeings about wandering around an estuary or up a quiet creek a small hidden lake or out the back of a dam... quiet peace solitude and gentle waters! not madly rushin about screamin as your danglin you bum in the drink as you hoot along... thats not canoeing to me

oooh sigh and yes yes I knows that the PNW and Canadian wilderness was more or less opened up by the canoes of the trappers and those dopey dupres who would scream down the rapids loaded with bear fox elk moose or buffallo... I know that but hey Im the slow an easy sorta bloke to me canoeings about etc etc etc

But really mate tell us how we got on standin in for you on edjoomakatin young Clinton?

Originally Posted by Clinton1

Thanks Michael,
I was interested to see what comments came up on the International 10m2 class... its such a pity its just a 'go fast' evolution. It'd be nice if you could compromise between the two (sail/paddle) without losing so much from each aspect. I've been telling myself that this class is 'not practicable' for a while now - still want one though!

The 10sq Metre canoes are wonderful to sail - particularly upwind and crosswind - I sailed one for an hour or so on Lake Macquarie quite a few years ago. Very sweet and viceless and terribly fast. Proves once again that if you want good handling - go for a narrow boat with a narrow stern!! (this is just me venting!)

"really effective hullshapes with hollow enough ends to give a huge amount of directional stability" - sorry mate, I'm a total beginner... can you tell me what that means (and why, if possible).

Now Mr Clinton - I need to speak some slightly harsh words to you - but my purpose it for the purposes of your education.

If you are a beginner - why are you coming up with all these ideas? I can tell you that in particular the keel idea was pretty awful.

What you need to understand is that wooden canoe technology goes back at least 300 years without counting the Indians in the equation at all (there are thousands of years of development really). And the boats were used for more serious adventures than either of us will ever undertake - people's lives depended on them - they used them day in and day out to cover real distances with real loads often in adverse conditions.

The point is that the lessons are there in the traditional boats - that it actually is pretty hard to improve their shapes for their purpose. There are a number of things that you can do to improve their construction - epoxy glass does give a nice strong boat with low maintenance which is very unlike the old boats. But the older construction methods probably would have been more at home in rapids and other nasty situations - canvas covered ribs - you can afford to break a few and the boat will still be watertight. It is also pretty easy to stitch a patch into the canvas if it is torn.

hollow enough ends to give a huge amount of directional stability

If you look end on at any of the classic wooden canoes (my Wee Lassie here) the first foot or three of the boat at water level and below is a vertical fin. The stern is the same. The fin at either end keeps the boat tracking in a straight line even in big winds and waves. It also makes them harder to turn - but directional stability is an excellent property of a good touring boat.

This is one area (apart from their excessive weight) where fibreglass canoe designs mostly fall down badly. The people who design them don't know about the directional stability - so the first thing they do when drawing up a new design is make the forward part of the boat very full and get rid of those nice hollows - get rid of the vertical fins. Their idea is to make the boat easier to build - make it easier to get the glass into the mould. But wander around they do and they don't cut the waves like the old boats.

Before you start worrying there is little problem getting the glass into that area of a stripper canoe - there is very little problem - it is a little more fiddly than the rest of the interior - but you don't even have to do a particularly speccy job because it is inside the buoyancy tank for the bigger boats (though my Wee Lassie didn't have them.

It is a revelation paddling one of the older designs too - particularly in company with fibreglass or polyethelene boats. They have to make three paddle strokes to your two. If you match their stroke rate you pull away and end up having to stop and wait for them around the corner.

There are some nice fibreglass boats around too - particularly in Canada and the USA - not so many nice glass canadians here.

Your comment about reducing the density of the timber - is that by using a less dense timber, or by using thinner strips?

Density is the property of the timber. The balsa I used is around 12lbs a cubic foot. The cedar is normally around 23. Used 7mm vs the normal 6mm strips for cedar.

The Chestnut Prospector is the strip canoe that is in the latest Aust. Woodworker - it prompted this thread. It looks nice - 4935mm (16 foot?) long and 25-27kg.
It was made from 19 x 6 mm WRC.

Had a peer through the article at the newsagents yesterday. It goes to show just how cool these boats are. The one in the magazine wasn't the best built I have seen but it was far from the worst. And even the worst worked beautifully in the water.

The thickness of the strips is normal but you can often get the width up more towards 22 or 23mm if the timber dimensions will allow it - saves a bit of labour and a bit of material cost.

The plans and method for the prospector are in "Canoecraft" along with around 8 other plans for some extremely cool canoes.

I think the Prospector is the nicest in the book - there is nothing bad to say about it. Carries a huge load, paddles well light, paddles nicely with one or two aboard, turns nicely and has a good reputation in rapids (for those who dare). A good honest boat with a wide range of capability.

Have a look at a couple of books - find a canoe that you think will work for you - and go for it. Stick to the traditional details - build the way the book suggests and you will end up with an excellent boat. Six months after launching you won't be a novice any more.

I can promise you that.

Make a nice paddling boat and there are a couple of simple things you can do to make it a good sailor - without mucking up its paddling ability.

MIK