Thread: Row/sail/General Purpose/Beach

The basic requirements remain the same as for the sea going rowboat in the other thread.

Sailed from the beach.
Launched and retrieved from a dolly (a variation from earlier)
Rough water but not storm conditions, I'm an older wombat who'd like to become and elderly wombat. The gulf waters here are rarely 'flat' and winds above 10 knots are pretty common.
Be suitable for single handed sailing but able to carry one or two people in addition.
Single sail - lug sail by choice - I want to learn about sailing, not be forced to come to terms with a dozen ropes, half a dozen sails and enough cleats to tie up the Royal Navy.

Now the killer - she should row well and row well off the beach. I want to be able to enjoy her as a rowboat with the emphasis being on 'enjoy', that doesn't mean ultimate performance, just that she's satisfying to row.

She should sail efficiently - I don't want to win races, just have a boat that works well - I guess this is the same as the above requirement, that I 'enjoy' sailing her.

I envisage parking at the Brighton car park, dragging her dolly off the trailer, launching her into the sea, going for a sail or row, then taking her home again all happy and satisfied.

So, we're not talking a big, family day sailer. We're not talking about a rowboat that'll tackled a circumnavigation of the gulf. I expect to be sitting on the floor or the gunwales. She'll be sailed for an hour or so and then beached again. For comparison, the Goat Island Skiff would suffice except it's not a rough water boat.

A light, recreational, general purpose boat for open waters. Any suggestions? Got a sail plan for the RYD-14.9 Paul?

Richard

Some discussion on why rowboats don't sail and sail boats don't row would probably be appropriate too - I think I know the answers but others stumbling over this thread might not.

Richard

When I first stuck my nose in the door at Duck Flat some 15 years ago, Rob A. and David
both tried to steer me in the direction of Charles Wittholz' 11ft Dinghy (from "50 Wooden
Boats"). Narrow at the water-line for rowing. Plenty of flare into cat boat proportions at
the sheer. A sailing boat with oar auxiliary power, with stability to make a non-sailing
Significant Other at ease.

However, the very idea of tweaking the plans into strip plank freaked me out at the time,
so I settled for Teal instead.

Something along the lines of Joel White's "Shearwater" from the same book might fit the
bill. Primarily a rowing boat that can sail. eg: http://www.sailoar.co.uk/Biography.cfm
As Woodenboat comment: "...she's not a sailboat for all weather. When it gets rough,
she's drier & safer under oars..."

Otherwise, "Drake" would seem to tick similar boxes. As would one or three of Oughtred's
smaller designs. Windage is the killer for rowing, quite aside from beam & wetted area.
While sailing boats need beam and/or free-board... Have a read of Bolger's treatise on Spur II in
"Boats with an open mind".
http://books.google.com/books?id=vBQ...q=spur&f=false

Then maybe skip back a few pagers to Sweet Pea.

cheers
AJ

As the official barsteward around here I think you need cheering up!

Have a read of this wonderful blog

http://www.theinvisibleworkshop.blogspot.com/

he is doing all the things you want to do in Gavin Atkin's Light Trow.

http://intheboatshed.net/?s=light+trow

Brian

I'd have to offer different advise than AJ. You don't want Drake or Shearwater...you need a plank keel or flat bottom to help beaching (otherwise I think Drake or SHearwater would be viable). Your "design brief" has DORY written all over it! These are "primarily rowboats that can sail"...that could very well be THE functional definition of the boat. Daddles, you should contact me. I do a lot with dories. A customer is building one of my dories now, and I have plans to go to Mystic and take the lines off an amazing 18'4" Chamberlain dory that I think would make the perfect dory. The Gunning dory is a double ender, a dream to row and sails just fine. In the other thread you stress the need to carry passengers and a dog...the beauty of dories is that they don't become bad rowers as you add weight. They become more stable, obviously heavier, but they still row remarkably well. If you are mostly rowing alone, I wouldn't go bigger then 17'. Mystic as a 17' model in their plans collection. There are many dories, all related, but with subtle differences in lines. I could help with learning about these boats. I suggest buying the Dory Book by John Gardner, as soon as possible, and start learning about the dory and all the models. I can write pages about these boats, but don't have the time to at the moment, so I think we can get started after you do some reading.

Sound good?

Cheers,
Clint

Yes, the Swamscott type dories were always going to feature in this discussion. My question is - how well do they sail? Brian found his Skerrieskiff to be tender, flighty and cramped and I suspect these terms will never be far from the discussion. Rather than talking dories as a group, my concerns would be more along the lines of choosing the wrong design - ask Mik about Banks Dories one day and you'll see where my concerns come from.

Reading Gardner's 'Building Classic Boats' or whatever it was (the two volume unit with the Herreshoft rowboat in it), he talks about dories as though they're rowing boats with a sailing kit dropped in. I know enough to suspect such claims but also enough to know that sometimes that's an over simplification and the result does work.

A boat that's a bit tippy isn't a bad thing for a learner (teach the old coot to keep an eye on what's happening rather than admire the crew's new bikini ), but such tenderness needs to be well within the realms of 'teaching', not 'scaring silly'. Let's face it, if I reach the point where I want performance I'll lay down the frames for a Fulmar.

I'm tired and babbling a bit - the lad got me up at 2am to watch the Young Socceroos team get beaten in their first game of the Under 20 World Cup (soccer)

I've been thinking about your flat bottom comments Clint. I agree with them in principal but wonder if there isn't room for movement. We sail all the racing dinghy classes off the beaches here, and not many of them have flat bottoms. Admittedly getting out is a case of wade in, shove off, clamber aboard and get the sails powered up before you wind up back on the beach whereas landing is a case of drive for the beach, turn into the wind at the last minute, leap overboard, grab the boat and drag her to the beach, so it's not all calm, recreational sailing, but doable.

On the other hand, being able to sail right onto the sand sounds like fun too.

Regarding your load carrying comments, about the boat just settling and not unduly affecting the rowing performance, Paul made similar comments about his RYD-12 which is a similar hull shape. I like the sound of that as varying loads will always be part of my life.

Length?
The Little Black Dog is 15'6" and I'm having trouble working on her in my shed so 15' (overall) is probably a sensible maximum while still offering lots of performance. A square transom would offer more load carrying than a double ender but I am drawn to the double enders and in that length, most seem to offer the load carrying I'm after.

The Light Trow - I'll have to look see if Gavin offers her without the yawl rig. Funny about that, I was nearly the first person in the world to build one a few years ago, had a few discussions with Gavin, but woosed out at the last moment for reasons I can't remember now.

Anyways, I'd better get out to the shed and sand and coat and ... try to find somewhere to store the hull while I use up all my available space sanding and coating the bottom panel of the LBD.

Richard

Now, the dories - lots of boats out there called 'dories' but are they really? Lots of 'dories' with wild claims made for them but are they real? To be honest, I've seen so much blather and claim made for boats of this name that I'm really wary of them, not the true dories, just boats bearing the tag.

My, admitedly limited, understanding, is that the real dories were fairly solid beasts with water line lengths that started around 15' - with the overhangs, that resulted in boats 18' long and upwards. Clint, even your own dory design is an eighteen footer.

My latest efforts with the Little Black Dog strongly suggest that I need to work on an overall length of about 15', just so I can work around the thing in my shed - even without Sixpence, I can't go higher as she's only 14' and needs the castors on her building frame so that I can move her around, even when she's the only boat in the shed.

As discussed by Mik and others, scaling down these boats leads to dramatic reductions in stability. Add to that, I do not intend to build this boat heavy - she'll be a gaboon and paulonia effort (the Little Black Dog, with her pacific maple and pine, has been a 'heavy' build in comparison) and any serious reading I've done on dories talks about how they love being loaded - no, I do not see the point in building a boat and then loading it with sandbags or water ballast (but that's personal and probably based on iggorance).

Which isn't to write off the dories, I'd just want to make sure it was designed to be 15' long, not scaled down and that it was designed to be built light, the sort of thing the Iain Oughtred does so well.

However, the essential features to take from the Gunning and Swampscott dories are the flat bottom panel and curving sides. Planking is an obvious ploy - as Paul reminded us it the rowboat thread, glued lapstrake offers the strongest hull for the least weight. A double ender at the water line for efficiency through the water though seeing I want to carry some weight occaisionally, some widening above that may be appropriate - another advantage of the curved sides.

I'm not going to wed myself to the term 'dory' but the Swampscott and Gunning do seem to offer the style of hull I'm after.

Richard
thus endeth the heresy

Richard, Richard, Richard........... this is indeed the begining of the never ending thread.

So you want an off the beach rowing boat that sails well (meaning well behaved) easily single handed up to 15' in length. Glued lap so it has trad looks, I've chucked that in just cause.

Hmmm......starting with sailing it seems to me any really good row boat is always going to be at best a compromise in the sailing department and you state rowing is the driver, got it. You are relatively new to sailing, got that.

You already have the perfect beginners sailing boat in Sixpence, so forget sailing qualities for the minute and finish it when you get to it. The UWBS is ready to give you a hand.

It has to deal with our beach break and short chop, got it.

Well there is a bloke who lives in Scotland who knows a bit about boats and rows some off the beach so for your next row boat I believe an Elf is the answer. I'm thinking it does have the qualities you are looking for plus it looks really cool. Maybe fit a centrecase and set it up with a sprit or lug rig for getting home downwind if you feel inclined. Hmmm and there can't be many Elfs in SA.

Then again if it was me I'd be tempted to do an Acorn 13 with a Gunter rig. I dont like rowing that much but to me it is a row boat that sails, plus it just looks beautiful.

m2cw..................for the moment

Originally Posted by m2c1Iw

Richard, Richard, Richard........... this is indeed the begining of the never ending thread.

Of course, where's the fun in starting a thread with an obvious answer The true joy of this thread is that we can discuss realities and theories and still get to make the final decision based on pure emotion ... and you're spending MY money so it's safe to make suggestions

So you want an off the beach rowing boat that sails well (meaning well behaved) easily single handed up to 15' in length. Glued lap so it has trad looks, I've chucked that in just cause.

There's part of me that reminds me that we sail racing dinghies off those beaches ... so the beach bit really boils down to 'able to use a beach dolly' ... maybe, it could be I'm missing something (it's hard to learn a lot in three or four sessions)

Hmmm......starting with sailing it seems to me any really good row boat is always going to be at best a compromise in the sailing department and you state rowing is the driver, got it. You are relatively new to sailing, got that.

If nothing else, I'd like my views on this compromise hardened somewhat. I've been taught to believe that the two do not mix very well, yet we see contrary claims every day, including young Mik with his famous Goat.

You already have the perfect beginners sailing boat in Sixpence, so forget sailing qualities for the minute and finish it when you get to it. The UWBS is ready to give you a hand.

I stand back and look at her and agree, then I remember the weight, the complications of that steel centreboard and the yawl rig, which almost certainly isn't a problem but let's throw it into the mix for fun. She's a boat to be launched from a trailer, at a boat ramp, to be used for genteel cruising with the family ... even if she is a bit small for that, that's what she is.

Now that the rowing skiff is nearing completion, I see plenty of room for a triumverate (yes, that's probably spelt wrong) - the Little Black Dog (pure rowing), Sixpence (the heavy family sailer) and something in the middle.

What's the middle? The beach row/sail boat I'm trying to find or a 12 foot, pure sailing dinghy ... lapstrake of course

It has to deal with our beach break and short chop, got it.

Well there is a bloke who lives in Scotland who knows a bit about boats and rows some off the beach so for your next row boat I believe an Elf is the answer. I'm thinking it does have the qualities you are looking for plus it looks really cool. Maybe fit a centrecase and set it up with a sprit or lug rig for getting home downwind if you feel inclined. Hmmm and there can't be many Elfs in SA.

You're right, time to revisit the Elf. I'd overlooked her because she seems to me to be more sail orientated, but you're right, time to look again ... and man could I make a meal of building her

Seriously, it's not a silly suggestion and one I will look at closely.

Then again if it was me I'd be tempted to do an Acorn 13 with a Gunter rig. I dont like rowing that much but to me it is a row boat that sails, plus it just looks beautiful.

m2cw..................for the moment

A bloody gunter rig? Mate, I had one of those horrid things on the Heron.

Here's where Hawk points out that I'm not a 'real sailor' - you can have your complicated ropes and stuff, I just want simple.

The Acorn 15 with a lug rig would answer a lot of desires and pay lip service to my 'requirements' - pure rowing boat, probably as tender as all blazes under sail and although that wine glass transom is gorgeous, imagine the profanity as I try to make it all come together?

This is where the Skerrieskiff let me down - a fairly simple build that would bridge that gap between Sixpence and the Little Black Dog, thus allowing me to finish Sixpence, get the skills to sail her and still leave room to retire the dog for the RYD 14.9

The Elf, got to revisit the Elf.

Richard

Richard, you really don't want to have this rowing/sailing boat. Boat's be their very nature are a convoluted set of concessions and compromise, even if just relegated to the singular task of rowing or sailing. Burdened with both roles, they'll do neither as well.

Simply put, the shapes that make for exciting sailing, truly suck as rowing craft and the reverse is true. There are a few boats that come close, but they still fail at one or more of your requirements in your design brief.

Dories are classic examples of these compromises. As row boats, they have to be quite small and narrow (to meet your requirements). There are proponents of dories, but they foster modified dories or dory skiffs, not actual dories. In fact, most folks don't even understand the evolution or variety of dory (I can name at least 12 distinct models), let alone why they once were successful, but not so much now, unless intended to be well burdened.

I guess what I'm saying is don't try to make a silk purse out of a cow's ear. You can have a rowboat that will sail moderately well, or you can have a sailboat that will give you a hernia while rowing. Pick one . . .

Originally Posted by PAR

Richard, you really don't want to have this rowing/sailing boat. Boat's be their very nature are a convoluted set of concessions and compromise, even if just relegated to the singular task of rowing or sailing. Burdened with both roles, they'll do neither as well.

Simply put, the shapes that make for exciting sailing, truly suck as rowing craft and the reverse is true. There are a few boats that come close, but they still fail at one or more of your requirements in your design brief.

Dories are classic examples of these compromises. As row boats, they have to be quite small and narrow (to meet your requirements). There are proponents of dories, but they foster modified dories or dory skiffs, not actual dories. In fact, most folks don't even understand the evolution or variety of dory (I can name at least 12 distinct models), let alone why they once were successful, but not so much now, unless intended to be well burdened.

I guess what I'm saying is don't try to make a silk purse out of a cow's ear. You can have a rowboat that will sail moderately well, or you can have a sailboat that will give you a hernia while rowing. Pick one . . .

Thanks Paul.
This is pretty much what I expected and thank you for putting it so well. Being irrepressibly human, I'd hoped I could fool the boating gods and get away with it

Okay, the right move would appear to be:
Finish the Little Black Dog (no danger of not doing that, but I like saying it - her bum goes on today )
Build a sailing dinghy to learn and play in.
Finish Sixpence for use as the 'family boat'
Build a really flash version of the RYD 14.9

I can live with that

Richard

**takes deep breath, slides printouts of slender double enders into the bin, glares at the siamese because being the family cat it's assumed he's to blame for everything**

The above post leads us to: "what sailing dinghy to build?"
Man, is that an open question.

- must be able to launch and retrieve off a dolly - our beaches provide sandy bottoms and flattish entries about knee deep (hence the waves) so having a boat that I can run onto the beach isn't so much of an issue

- must sail efficiently enough to allow me to learn how to sail properly but then to be satisfying to use later (if I later decide I need high performance, I'll build high performance)

- be efficient sailing either single handed or with a crew, the crew being there either to learn or to just have fun sailing with me

- will be sailed in the choppy waters of an exposed, narrow gulf

- be roomy enough for an aging, generously proportioned wombat with a regretable tendancy to be inept

Personal preferences include:
- glued lapstrake for strength, lightness and lack of clutter on the inside ... and because Jan thinks they look really gorgeous (she'll demand a lot of bright work too )

- single lug sail - dunno why I like the lug but I do, single sail because I don't want to be mucking about with jibs and added ropes and stuff, especially when sailing alone (it's hard enough tacking when you've got a rudder and main halyard to get tangled in, let alone a jib halyard as well ... yes, I know, I'm not a real sailor because I don't like lots of ropes to play with )

- 12 foot is the popular size for this sort of boat but I can go up to 15 so maybe there's some merit there, though remember that it needs to be able to be single handed.

I could throw up a picture of something I'm drawn to but don't want to pre-empt anyone else's thoughts

Richard

Has to be the Oughtred Shearwater.

12'
epoxy clinker
light weight
single lug rig
good looking
bright finish if you like, Varnol and spar varnish, avoiding all that horrible epoxy
beamy to be stable while you learn more, room for aged helm!
planing hull form for later

http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/IainO_Ca...Shearwater.pdf

Please do not go bigger than 12' what ever you choose.

Brian

Originally Posted by keyhavenpotter

Has to be the Oughtred Shearwater.

12'
epoxy clinker
light weight
single lug rig
good looking
bright finish if you like, Varnol and spar varnish, avoiding all that horrible epoxy
beamy to be stable while you learn more, room for aged helm!
planing hull form for later

http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/IainO_Ca...Shearwater.pdf

Please do not go bigger than 12' what ever you choose.

Brian

That's exactly what I was thinking of

Why the advice to not go bigger than 12' ?

Richard