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  1. #61
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    Just to bring this back to Richard's reality. I remember trying to launch and, more particularly, land boats on Adelaide beaches (esp Glenelg) with my Dad and my maternal Uncle. Although the swell is small, because it is up the gulf, the chop can be fierce and the shore is steep. I remember trying to gybe a heron off Somerton(?) beach - the only way this little black duck could do it was to slide over to the bar and gybe on top of a wave. Rowing out through that chop would not be my idea of fun.

    I suspect ( but I certainly don't know) that because of the chop, getting out may mean that you need a shorter LWL than would be ideal for rowing - you want the bow to rise over waves that are steep but not "thick"; if it is too long, it will push through the wave and half of the briny will be around your ankles before you know it. And chaufeuring water about is not fun!!!

    FWIW as a non-rower but someone who has sailed in the waters, I wonder whether the best solution for RIchard will be a boat that copes well with a swell like (LBD (Little Black Dog)) once it is "outside", with a foredeck and coaming to deal with the chop when it is close tothe beach (and a flat bottom). My recollection is that once you are outside the chop, the gulf waters off the western beaches of Adelaide undulate but are not hard work to get through.

    Please feel free to ignore these ramblings - I have just finished sampling (by total consumption alone) a bottle from a new case of McLaren Vale's finest and my thoughts may be affected......
    Cheers

    Jeremy
    If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmk89 View Post
    Just to bring this back to Richard's reality. I remember trying to launch and, more particularly, land boats on Adelaide beaches (esp Glenelg) with my Dad and my maternal Uncle. Although the swell is small, because it is up the gulf, the chop can be fierce and the shore is steep. I remember trying to gybe a heron off Somerton(?) beach - the only way this little black duck could do it was to slide over to the bar and gybe on top of a wave. Rowing out through that chop would not be my idea of fun.

    I suspect ( but I certainly don't know) that because of the chop, getting out may mean that you need a shorter LWL than would be ideal for rowing - you want the bow to rise over waves that are steep but not "thick"; if it is too long, it will push through the wave and half of the briny will be around your ankles before you know it. And chaufeuring water about is not fun!!!

    FWIW as a non-rower but someone who has sailed in the waters, I wonder whether the best solution for RIchard will be a boat that copes well with a swell like (LBD (Little Black Dog)) once it is "outside", with a foredeck and coaming to deal with the chop when it is close tothe beach (and a flat bottom). My recollection is that once you are outside the chop, the gulf waters off the western beaches of Adelaide undulate but are not hard work to get through.

    Please feel free to ignore these ramblings - I have just finished sampling (by total consumption alone) a bottle from a new case of McLaren Vale's finest and my thoughts may be affected......
    I quite agree Jeremy short LWL for coming back in wouldn't hurt either, plus a rudder and maybe a bilge pump.

    BTW the first bottle produces a clear coherent argument, the ramblings usually start after the second bottle and of course this opinion is based on both observation and experimentation.

    Mike

  4. #63
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    Here's Paul Gartside's surfdorydesign, as a pointer to purely meeting the surf head on so to speak

    http://www.gartsideboats.com/catrow2.php#154





    Brian

  5. #64
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    Mike, perhaps I miscounted the bottles....

    Why doesn't the dory rowed by liifesavers have a foredeck and coaming? Then you can add LWL for better rowing and get out through the inshore chop.....
    Cheers

    Jeremy
    If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly

  6. #65
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    Note that there'll only be one idiot rowing this boat and that idiot won't be tackling surf like that

    Mike and Jeremy are correct in imagining that the hardest part will be the first ten metres off shore but let's not go thinking I'll be out there fighting surf, I've got more sense than that.

    Your thoughts on a shorter boat are interesting Jeremy.

    Richard

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmk89 View Post
    Mike, perhaps I miscounted the bottles....

    Why doesn't the dory rowed by liifesavers have a foredeck and coaming? Then you can add LWL for better rowing and get out through the inshore chop.....
    and why no holes to let the water out?

    will not let me post the link?
    Jersey Skiffs

    Brian

  8. #67
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    Yep, the Sea Bright (Jersey skiff) is a well suited option, though likely will hit the weight limit requirement, as I suspect most prospects will. Solo handling a boat off the beach requires a few design elements, but weight is a prime consideration. High ends, low midship freeboard, moderately wide plank keel and fine entry/exit are also considerations for a maneuverable, deep water rowing machine.

    This makes me think along the lines of glued lapstrake to keep the weight as low as possible. The first boats that comes to mind are the Gunning Dory and the Chamberlain surf dory. These are specialized Swampscott's.

    There are other possibilities, but these jump out right away.

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmk89 View Post
    FWIW as a non-rower but someone who has sailed in the waters, I wonder whether the best solution for RIchard will be a boat that copes well with a swell like (LBD (Little Black Dog)) once it is "outside", with a foredeck and coaming to deal with the chop when it is close tothe beach (and a flat bottom). My recollection is that once you are outside the chop, the gulf waters off the western beaches of Adelaide undulate but are not hard work to get through.

    Then there are these Jersey Skiffs - a bit big for the roof-rack at 17' long
    http://intheboatshed.net/2009/06/24/...-with-windows/


    As someone who has occasionally paddled a kayak in it, I agree.
    Getting past that small break is the hard (& wet) bit.
    Once past that, it is normally fairly civilized.
    On the days I've been out in it anyway.
    Suggest a relatively full bow & narrow stern offer driest exit & ingress through breaking
    waves. The most easily controlled passage anyway, with least risk of broaching.
    My kayaks tend to have very fine bows, so are slow to rise. On the other hand, this
    makes them less 'bouncy' once out there.

    Hey Daddles - want to do an experiment with my Teal one day?
    11'6" x 3'7" and a much better row boat than sail boat. Might help clarify issues & wish-list,
    even though the winglets will affect its sideways behaviour.
    cheers
    AJ

  10. #69
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    Hello Richard,

    Interesting thread!

    Perhaps another option is Flint designed by Ross Lillistone (stitch and glue building method):




    It might fit your requirements at 14'7" x 4'. Apparently this boat has been built at 50 kg using gaboon 6 mm marine ply. One of the design parameters was that it had to handle a steep chop well.

    Best regards,

    Joost

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    Hello Richard,

    Interesting thread!

    Perhaps another option is Flint designed by Ross Lillistone (stitch and glue building method):
    The problem with Flint Joost, is that transom - when trying to beach her, waves have that square bum to slap at which is why a double ended design is a better choice.

    This bit of surf is turning out to be like landing an aeroplane, you've got to do it sometime and nature doesn't really care how you manage it even if you do

    Richard

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by b.o.a.t. View Post
    As someone who has occasionally paddled a kayak in it, I agree.
    Getting past that small break is the hard (& wet) bit.
    Once past that, it is normally fairly civilized.
    On the days I've been out in it anyway.
    AJ
    I was hoping someone who's kayaked out there would chime in. You see a few sea kayaks out there (never rowboats) and I've often wondered where they launch and how ... and what features make the kayak work.

    Richard

  13. #72
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    Richard, if you space out the station molds on RYD-12.6 out from16" to 20" you end up with a 16' 6" boat. The boat would be leaner, so easier to propel, not much heavier and would still have all of her qualities.

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAR View Post
    Yep, the Sea Bright (Jersey skiff) is a well suited option, though likely will hit the weight limit requirement, as I suspect most prospects will. Solo handling a boat off the beach requires a few design elements, but weight is a prime consideration. High ends, low midship freeboard, moderately wide plank keel and fine entry/exit are also considerations for a maneuverable, deep water rowing machine.

    This makes me think along the lines of glued lapstrake to keep the weight as low as possible. The first boats that comes to mind are the Gunning Dory and the Chamberlain surf dory. These are specialized Swampscott's.

    There are other possibilities, but these jump out right away.
    They are the options that keep jumping out at me too though I do wonder if part of that isn't the American influence swamping other country's.

    I've got Gardner's 'Building Classic Small Craft' at home from the library at the moment and damn me if it doesn't read differently everytime I look at something, obviously I'm still absorbing stuff and reading with preconceptions (I've never been good at book learning, I'm a hands on learner).

    The gunning dory keeps popping up. Serious bit of kit though. So many dories are drawn with sails - are these rowing boats with a sail added because people want one (as is the case with the gunning dory in Gardner's book) or have the designs been widened to take the sail?
    Similarly, did I do Iain Oughtred's small boats a disservice earlier - they're all designed to take a sailing rig but which ones are rowboats with a sail?

    This makes me think along the lines of glued lapstrake to keep the weight as low as possible.
    Is this to avoid the interior framing you see on a lot of boats?

    I've been thinking of lapstrake, tank front and rear for safety but also to stiffen the hull, central seating for the hooman beasties plus stowage.

    Solo handling a boat off the beach requires a few design elements, but weight is a prime consideration. High ends, low midship freeboard, moderately wide plank keel and fine entry/exit are also considerations for a maneuverable, deep water rowing machine.
    Noted

    Richard

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAR View Post
    Richard, if you space out the station molds on RYD-12.6 out from16" to 20" you end up with a 16' 6" boat. The boat would be leaner, so easier to propel, not much heavier and would still have all of her qualities.
    Mate, I was hoping you'd say that! It's something I'd considered but didn't want to suggest it, me not knowing anything about design.

    Richard

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daddles View Post
    I was hoping someone who's kayaked out there would chime in. You see a few sea kayaks out there (never rowboats) and I've often wondered where they launch and how ... and what features make the kayak work.

    Richard
    The main feature that makes a kayak "work" is it is fully decked with a spray deck seal.
    For getting out through a break anyway. Think in terms of a submarine on the surface.
    After that, there are helpful discourses about boat shape at http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/
    http://www.greenval.com/jwinters.html

    Usual juggling act. If the boat is full enough at the ends to rise over surf ,
    it will be a wearying beast as it pitches to every little ripple.
    This can be alleviated by placing volume above the waterline at the ends.
    But then you start increasing windage.

    Big attraction of kayaks & canoes is their extreme portability, and the fact that, facing
    forwards, you can see the rock just before you hit it, rather than just afterwards.

    Launching.... depends upon load, cockpit size, agility & stability. My little boats are
    light & not all that stable, and I'm not agile. So I climb in with boat barely aground in
    the shallows, then shuffle my way afloat on my knuckles.

    Having said all that, the most fun I ever had in (small) surf was in a 16' canadian.
    Have paddled several km on several occasions in nasty chop without getting wet.
    Just have to slow down enough to allow the bow to rise.
    cheers
    AJ

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