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  1. #1
    Elwoodchipmaker Guest

    Default Starting small before hitting the big time

    G'day,

    I'm crazily considering having a go a building something sail worthy. But before I embark on a year long project that's going to empty my pocket as quickly as it fills my garage, I'm thinking of testing my skills out on an RC 1/10th scale model.

    I'm liking the looks of a 20' flyaway as a 1st attempt at boatbuilding so my model will probably end up about the 2' length. This is where I hit my first snag. By reducing in size to 1/10th, would I be correct in assuming that if I put a 20kilo weight in the back to simulate a couple of large Australian weekend pirates who each weigh about 100kilos be an accurate test? Or do weight/displacement requirements change as the scale drops down?

    I have a funny feeling this will be the first of many seemingly stupid questions and would appreciate whatever advice/assistance you may have on offer.

    Cheers!

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  3. #2
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    Not a stupid question mate... in fact the ONLY stupid question is the question NOT asked!!

    Dont know about the exact weights... BUT!!... awhile back I built a model of a luggar I drew and just farted around with lead fishing weights in the bilge until I got her first to her lines then a few more to add weights of people and load... fairly well okay totally inaccurate I guess but it worked for my purposes

    Of course not long after my then 10 year old son and his 9 year old cousin decided that pirates had invaded the pond in the creek and so must be repelled at all costs... and before I could work out just what the little buggars were doing they had demasted and holed her!!! She sank ...but then I guess if any boat is demasted and holed with such pirate vengance as these two little fellas vented upon my beautiful model it would sink to

    Moral to this wee yarn?... Its okay to make a model that can actually float and sail... just DONT let the damned nippers near the thing!! Cause theys pirates theys are!!

    Cheers
    Shane
    Believe me there IS life beyond marriage!!! Relax breathe and smile learn to laugh again from the heart so it reaches the eyes!!


  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwoodchipmaker View Post
    I'm liking the looks of a 20' flyaway as a 1st attempt at boatbuilding so my model will probably end up about the 2' length. This is where I hit my first snag. By reducing in size to 1/10th, would I be correct in assuming that if I put a 20kilo weight in the back to simulate a couple of large Australian weekend pirates who each weigh about 100kilos be an accurate test? Or do weight/displacement requirements change as the scale drops down?
    Cheers!
    Yes, surface area & volume vary with the square & cube of the scale respectively.
    Your 1/10 scale model has 1/100 of the surface area, 1/1000 of the volume.
    Logically, if you can scale the thickness of all your panels to 1/10 of the originals
    in the same material, it should come out near 1/1000 of the weight.
    100g should then approximate your 100KG pirates.

    My turn for a question....
    how are you going to replicate real boat-building techniques, materials & issues in
    a 1/10 scale model ? <opinion> The scale model will help you see how the bits fit
    together, but not give you experience in actual boat-building skills & techniques.
    That's what I found anyway.
    Better to build a small boat of similar construction to your "real" boat - strip plank /
    lapstrake / stitch & glue ply / whatever.. You never know, the little boat might
    prove to be as much as you really need & save a lot of $$ on the big one !! They
    say little boats get used more anyway.

    cheers
    AJ

  5. #4
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    AJ's got a point there.

    You're looking at a 20 footer, so you're not talking about a boat you'll toss on the roof to have a look at the local creek, or a boat that'll necessariy be parked on the beach while you have a picnic or ...

    How about building a Nutshell pram? Either the 7' version or the 9' version if you want a bit more room. Cheap to build. Easy to build. You learn lots about building boats (including whether it's 'right' for you) and wind up with a versatile little craft that will complement the big bloke ... besides, it's a long haul building a 20 footer and this'll give you something to muck about it

    Richard

  6. #5
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    Ah me lads,

    There be one other place biggest changes be seen ..... aaaaaaar.

    Oh sorry, um, I was practicing for International Talk Like a Pirate Day. It is coming soon on September 19th. http://www.talklikeapirate.com/

    But more to the point ... the big one for scaling is stability!!!! It reduces so fast with even small changes that it is hard to make sailing models that accurately reflect the behaviour of the original.

    Which is why model yachts have such long keels with a ballast bulb on the bottom.



    With motor boats you can probably "get away with it" by talking all the weight that you need to bring the boat up to the scale weight and putting right down in the bottom of the hull.

    However with a 1/10 scale sailing boat .... stability will be 1/10,000 of the original (1/10 raised to the 4th power)

    You can have a lot of fun. By comparing boats of similar scales you can probably learn a lot, but as far as doing something bigger ...

    ... it is best to take the general lessons you have learned from model boats and then start with a clean sheet of paper to design something bigger.

    Best wishes
    Michael

  7. #6
    Elwoodchipmaker Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by b.o.a.t. View Post
    how are you going to replicate real boat-building techniques, materials & issues in
    a 1/10 scale model ? <opinion> The scale model will help you see how the bits fit
    together, but not give you experience in actual boat-building skills & techniques.
    That's what I found anyway.
    Better to build a small boat of similar construction to your "real" boat - strip plank /
    lapstrake / stitch & glue ply / whatever.. You never know, the little boat might
    prove to be as much as you really need & save a lot of $$ on the big one !! They
    say little boats get used more anyway.
    AJ


    Hi AJ, I'm liking the way you've so effortlessly reduced my bulk down from 100kilos to 100 grams! Jenny Craig would be most impressed!

    As far as how I was planning on building the smaller boat, well, I was going to build it exactly the same way as the plans instruct me to!
    Just with smaller tools and smaller timbers. I have a good supply of both hard and softwood offcuts and all the tools needed to cut them down to the sizes I need. I imagine a fair amount of hand carving will be involved but thats kinda the challenge I'm looking forward to.

    For the shell, I have a good timber merchant not far from here [Lazarides] that sell wafer thin veneers that I can ply together myself and practice the stitch and glue in miniature! I figure if I can get the accuracy I need in my joinery to get a mini one up and sailing, the larger one won't have anywhere near as much to throw at me!

    Aside from that, I'll probably end up spending numbers with 3 zeros after it building a little boat anyway. The basic shell of the small one shouldn't venture much further than the hundreds and will give me an indication of weather I'm keen on trying for a bigger boat or if I should stick to occasional furniture like I have been.

    Cheers!

    Elwood.

  8. #7
    Elwoodchipmaker Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daddles View Post

    How about building a Nutshell pram? Either the 7' version or the 9' version if you want a bit more room. Cheap to build. Easy to build. You learn lots about building boats (including whether it's 'right' for you) and wind up with a versatile little craft that will complement the big bloke ... besides, it's a long haul building a 20 footer and this'll give you something to muck about it

    Richard
    G'day Richard,

    I'm liking the look of this Nutshell Pram and 9' sounds like it'd take my girth with ease.
    Might have to shop around for some plans! Just wondering though, if this has a freestanding mast, what's the best timber to use for it?

    Cheers!

    Elwood

  9. #8
    Elwoodchipmaker Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post

    But more to the point ... the big one for scaling is stability!!!! It reduces so fast with even small changes that it is hard to make sailing models that accurately reflect the behaviour of the original.

    However with a 1/10 scale sailing boat .... stability will be 1/10,000 of the original (1/10 raised to the 4th power)
    Hi Michael,

    Thats exactly what I was wondering. I'm picturing a 1 foot swell acting just like a 10 foot swell on the model variety and was worried how it was going to handle being thrown about.

    The pic of the looooong weighted keel has really opened my eyes and tells me two things... 1. I have a lot more homework to do and 2. I have a lot more homework to do!

    But if anything, I'm keener than ever to make something float!

    Thanks!

    Elwood.

  10. #9
    Elwoodchipmaker Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwoodchipmaker View Post

    before I could work out just what the little buggars were doing they had demasted and holed her!!!
    Crikey Shane! did you make the kids walk the plank for that?

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwoodchipmaker View Post
    Hi AJ, I'm liking the way you've so effortlessly reduced my bulk down from 100kilos to 100 grams! Jenny Craig would be most impressed!
    I did it for me as much as you. Maybe more so !!

    Aside from that, I'll probably end up spending numbers with 3 zeros after it building a little boat anyway. The basic shell of the small one shouldn't venture much further than the hundreds and will give me an indication of weather I'm keen on trying for a bigger boat or if I should stick to occasional furniture like I have been.

    Cheers!

    Elwood.
    If you end up spending numbers with three zeros after them on a small,
    introductory boat, then it might be the wrong boat ! MIK's PDR goes
    together for about $500 or so. As do several of Bolgers instant boats, &
    probably both Nutshells. To Rowing stage anyway. The sail is the only
    big-ticket item, & that can be cheapened by making it in polytarp. It will
    last until you decide to either spend $400 or so on a 'proper' one, or sell
    up.
    10 years on, I'm onto the 4th sail on my Bolger Teal (2 1/4 sheets of ply plus
    assorted scrap timber) - the others are still in good nick - just getting larger
    as I gain confidence with the boat.

    cheers
    AJ

  12. #11
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    Depends on the type of sailing you want to do. If you want a general purpose row/sail boat the Nutshell is a good choice of small boat.

    But if you want something that sails really well and also allows some opportunity to experiment .. then the PDRacer is a good way to go.

    And heaps of other choices for different mixes.

    Best wishes
    Michael Storer

  13. #12
    Elwoodchipmaker Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Depends on the type of sailing you want to do. If you want a general purpose row/sail boat the Nutshell is a good choice of small boat.

    But if you want something that sails really well and also allows some opportunity to experiment .. then the PDRacer is a good way to go.
    Hi Michael,

    I'll be perfectly honest here, the idea of rowing is pretty much out of the question. Not that I'm lazy, just that I have a dodgy shoulder and a wrist to match that wouldn't take too kindly to it.

    If there's no wind about an I absolutely HAVE to make shore, there's gonna be a little putt putter involved in getting me home, hence why I was originally looking at something a little on the larger size. The PDRacer might just be a little too little for what I have in mind.

  14. #13
    Elwoodchipmaker Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by b.o.a.t. View Post

    I'm onto the 4th sail on my Bolger Teal (2 1/4 sheets of ply plus
    assorted scrap timber) - the others are still in good nick - just getting larger
    as I gain confidence with the boat.
    Hi AJ,

    I really like the looks and simplicity of the Teal. And the build price is certainly attractive too...

    Hmmm, you have all given me much room for thought...

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwoodchipmaker View Post
    As far as how I was planning on building the smaller boat, well, I was going to build it exactly the same way as the plans instruct me to!
    .
    I tried to do that with Redback ... and it proved to be far harder than building the real thing ... and anyone who knows the drama that *&&^%%%$ Redback gave me will understand the power of that statement

    I sympathise with your aim and will probably do it again, but DO NOT equate model boat building with the real thing. About the only common denominator is the use of the moaning chair

    If you want a model boat, I think you're probably best served looking for model boat plans. Having said that, next time you're in Adelaide, there's a modest collection of Oughtred (and others) plans that are yours to peruse provided you're willing to match me ???????? with ???????? oiled by whatever alcoholic we have to hand

    Richard
    who has more to say but fears he may be even more incoherent than the Mad Dingo (G'day Shane **waves hand**)

  16. #15
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    Dammit, I AM going to have more to say.

    If you really think you'd like an R/C yacht, GO FOR IT.

    Seriously.

    I've got an old free float yacht that I converted to very basic r/c years ago and that wee boat has given me countless hours of harmless entertainment. They are great fun, they really are ... and mine is rubbish

    I don't know about the mania for racing and stuff like that, but for just sitting on the bank of the local duck pond on a mild summer's day with someone decorative of the preferred gender to keep you company, it is really hard to go past an r/c sailing boat.

    I still reckon building something like the Nutshell (and that includes a wide range of boats) is a good way to get started though.

    Richard

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