Thread: First timer!

hey,
i understand your predicament as i am a first timer as well,
I have saved a couple thousand and i plan on building something a bit bigger than the goat island skiff, but only because i would like a small cabin.

Thats enough of me though, if you have small children aboard you may want to look at something with a cabin as well. I don't want to make suggestions that you have probably already thought about though, especially as i am just as inexperienced as you, but through my searches, 2 suitable boat designers/ boats for you would be...

- Hartley 16 (very popular home build design, thousands have been made) 5m long, small cabin with 2 berths. In fact there are few similar smaller versions of this boat on the same site that may suite you better. Hartley boat plans 'Hartley 16' sail boat

- Waller designs, there are three of the same size boats here (5.4m) but suited for different purposes, my suggestion, moreton bay sharpie Mike Waller Yacht Design - Moreton Bay Sharpie 5.4 - Boat plan for amateur builders

Obviously more experienced boat builders and users of this site will have more to say but i hope these 2 suggestions help you out, i would of had more suggestions about 2 weeks ago but i've forgotten all the old links unfortunately as these 2 designers along with some cat designers have become my only shortlist.

Good luck,

James

The GIS will prove a much simpler and lighter build. I think you'll find that it's a preferred design here, when all the opinions are said and done. The Pathfinder is a considerably larger craft.

Taking either boat out on it's side should present some interesting engineering problems, but nothing that you couldn't handle after building either boat, as boat building is pretty much all about problem solving.

Ventilation is all you need when working on your project under the house. Epoxy fumes are heavier then air and don't smell much at all. Solvents can and do smell, but a well used box fan can solve all these issues easily. I would place the box fan at one end of the work space and have a similar size exit (similar size window maybe) with just a screen in it at the other end of the space. The lets the fan pressurize the work area and the fumes are forced to leave though the other window. You could also staple or other wise attach a vapor barrier to the underside of the floor joists so noxious odors don't get into the house.

Wow! 1st reply from Pah! Honoured. Thanks for your advice. It is the Navigator I'm looking at 15', but yes the GIS is tempting. Like the idea of very thorough plans. not sure about sleeping on it .
Great tips on ventilation- that has calmed me somewhat. I knew a kid at school who would put thinners on his school tie and inhale it, and I saw what it did to him!
Will look at Oghtred & Payne boats also. Iwant it to look wood inside & round mast- I couldn,t look at square all day. Bit old fashioned.
Thanks Pah.
ps perhaps you have a suitable design?

Brad.

pss gotta go to bed now - been on this site for hours!

Hi James, thanks for your ideas.
I really want a dingy- all open with some storage space.
Would prob be just me on longer treks. Also less building and materials & weight.,
Would love one of those Vivier boats like Ilur, but too complicated for beginner I think. but SO pretty.
Really want a shallow water boat with some deep water potential.
Thanks Brad.
Also, kind of got a thing for catboats!

haha,
well if you would like an open cruiser than i also think the goat is the way to go,
In terms of cats, i have only ever sailed on a cruising beach cat once and it was a few years ago in the whit sundays (if thats how you spell it). It was exceptionally easy to sail and as long as you can stop your children from walking off the edge, i think it would be very suitable. I'm not sure what its like to sail on these home built beach cats though and from sailing on a few racing beach cats, they are very fast but fun. In terms of storage space i'm also not too sure, i would think if you built it yourself you should be able to come up with some kind of solution.

here is tehiti way farer, a James Wharram design, looks like very comfortable sailing

James Wharram Designs -Home of the self-build Catamaran.

and here is a Richard woods list of beach cat/dinghy designs

List of dinghy designs by Woods Designs

hope this helps,

James

This is a 5.35 m boat of mine that is suitable for rough water. It has tons of storage space and enough cockpit space to erect a tent for camping. In perticularly rough weather, you can rig her as a cat by using the forward step, making a 33% reduction in area. She also uses a curved sprit boom, eliminating the need for a snotter and a vang, plus she doesn't have a "bad" side like a conventional sprit. One of these is going together now in Tasmania by another forum member.

Nice design Par. Well presented.
Im curious though, why don't you have a website for you designs.
Mark

Hi James, I mean Catboats- the US single hull boats, not catamarans.
Have sailed them and they are fun, but not the do everything boat I'm trying to find. I know that is impossible- but I'm trying to tick as many boxes as possible.
Thanks Pah for that design- looks beautiful. Where can I find some blog on this site on it?
or some pictures somewhere?
Thanks, Brad.

Mark, a site is something I keep meaning to get around to, but work always seems to get in the way, though I have posted a few designs (Murphy included) on the new WoodenBoat Magazine Plans Directory. Now that things have eased up a bit, maybe it'll get more consideration.

Jassmoon, I don't know of a blog for the Murphy build, which doesn't mean one doesn't exist or will in the future. I'm under the impression the builder was going to start this spring, which will have given him several months to look over the plans. On the other hand, it could be completed and making a 'round the island shake down as I write.

One of the ways of estimating cost roughly is to count the number of ply sheets in the boats.

The cost of epoxy follows the price of the ply but also is increased by the amount of glass used.

A boat I quite like is the Bolger Instant Catboat which has some similarity with Paul's boat above but the instant one is plywood. Plywood usually means the build is faster.



The first question I always ask people about their thinking is where is their emphasis.

1/ to get a boat to use on the water

or

2/ is the building something that is really important to them.

If the want a boat to use relatively quickly then either get a plan that can be built in sheet plywood without any permantent jig that you have to build over OR get a second hand boat in sailing order.
For example you can pick up at TS16 for about 2500 or 3000 in quite reasonable order if you choose carefully.

Or if the building is the main thing then one of the glued lapstrake/clinker boats is probably the second fastest right through to Cedar/timber strip which is the most laborious.

Can you feel the spectrum I am talking about? You are in there somewhere.

Best wishes
Michael

Thanks Pah, will look out for it.

Hi Micheal, thanks for your input. Yeah its definitely gotta be ply- I'm not up for the steamed frames etc yet! Or the solid wood.
The building is important for me. I have been looking at 2nd hand boats, but the "I built it myself" thing is pretty important.
I've done some serious googling since my last entry. Thanks for the tip on the bobcat- its high on the list. There are a lot of catboats out there but they are all so heavy!! And slow! These are older designs of course. The Bolger boats Bobcat & Chebacco are modern takes.
I still think the Nav is for me. I will see one this weekend & chat to the builder.
I might see if I can buy an old Wayfarer or something to get on the water whilst I build the dreamboat, then I can have my cake & eat it too!

Also, are lapstrake & clinker the same thing? Looks like it to me, or am I missing something? Maybe clinker has more boards?

Thanks Brad.

Or if the building is the main thing then one of the glued lapstrake/clinker boats is probably the second fastest right through to Cedar/timber strip which is the most laborious.

Actualy Mike,
I've found that strip plank is one of the quickest and one of the most favoured in relation to the shape of the hull as your not constricted to flat panels.
My opinion anyway
However, in relation to first time builders, I would always go with plywood, as its a good way to learn basic boatbuilding techniques and once your pretty confident with your skills, progress to strip plank.

Originally Posted by Jazzman

Also, are lapstrake & clinker the same thing? Looks like it to me, or am I missing something? Maybe clinker has more boards?

Thanks Brad.

Kinda, sorta.
Trad clinker has solid, overlapping (where the "lap" comes from) planks (strakes)
bent around frames, then held together & boat-shaped with a swag of steamed
ribs and a squillion rivets through each cross-over of lap & rib. Relies on tight
wood-work & water swelling the timer to seal the laps. Boat needs to be left in
the water much of the time to stay water-tight, unless blessed with AD's
exceptional wood-working.

Modern epoxy/ply lapstrake uses epoxy glue to seal & bond the laps, eliminating
the need for ribs & rivets. The bonded laps form longitudinal ribs which
strengthen the boat & reduce the need for frames. Coated with epoxy, the
structure remains dry & can be stored dry.

Make sense?
cheers
AJ

Clinker is a method of joining pieces, lapstrake is a method of planking. There are also other methods of joining the planks (such as the rivets AJ mentioned) on a lapstrake build, though clinker is a common term that often (incorrectly) refers to lapstrake planking. This term (clinker) is believed to be a bastardization of the word "clinken" which is no longer used (at least in the last 200 years or so). Other terms such as "clenched" or "clench built" are similar to clinker in origin and refer to the clenched copper nails, commonly used in small lapstrake craft.

Lapstrake craft can have their planks joined with rivets (also called roves), clenches (bent nails), screws and bolts (machine screws in small craft).

A new version of lapstrake building, as AJ has described, is "glued lapstrake", where as the laps (planking lands or joints) are glued with thickened epoxy. The resulting structure doesn't move, like the traditional plank over stringer over rib type of construction seen in traditional builds, resulting in a much more rigid structure.

This is only possible with the use of plywood for the planking and thickened epoxy in the seams. The resulting longitudinal stringers, at the edge of each plank (formed by gluing the two adjacent planks) make a solid, water tight structure that needs very few internal structural elements to hold the boat's athwartship shape.

Solid lumber planking, typically softwood, was used in lapstrake boats up until WW-II. Plywood began to quickly superseded solid lumber as planking because of it's physical qualities (not prone to split, doesn't swell and shrink, is dimensionally stable, holds fasteners better, additional cross grain strength, etc.).

As a result of plywood planking, traditional lapstrake builds can live on a trailer quite well, when compared to solid lumber planking. It works much better if the laps have seam compound (polysulfide) in them, but plywood is so dimensionally stable that a trailer boat can stay dry without it. Of course this assumes the fasteners (clenches, roves, screws, etc.) are tight in their holes.

The plank count is determined by several factors including the shapes employed in the build (hard turns require narrower planks), the beam/length ratio, plank twist limitations, aesthetic considerations, etc. There's no set rule to plank count, though there are several about the way they should taper and sweep from end to end.