Thread: Heads-up on plywood purchase

Good to know, thanks Arron.

Originally Posted by Arron

. It has the usual meaningless BS1088 stamp on it. That means nothing outside the UK so I guess I cant say anything about the glue or lasting qualities.

Arron

Arron,

Sounds like you got a bargain. WRT to your above comment on the British Standard not meaning anything outside the UK this is actually not true. It is one of the many urban myths out there surrounding the BS1088 standard. The actual Standard is BS1088-1:2003 and BS1088-2:2003. It is a current standard listed by the British Standards Institute ( I have a copy) and plywood can be manufactured to this standard anywhere in the world - even here in Australia. All the standard is, is a set of specifications that the plywood manufacturing must adhere to.

What the standard does strongly encourage is third party certification that the plywood actually does comply to the Standard. There are a number of organisations that can certify this for a manufacturer but probably the most widely known is Lloyd's Register ( we have a branch here in Australia) . The Standard actually states -

“the accuracy of the claim (of standard compliance) is solely the claimant’s responsibility. Such a declaration is not to be confused with third-party certification of conformity."

So basically we have a lot of foreign mills claiming that their product is compliant with the standard when in fact it is not. What makes it worse is that importers and re-sellers of so called BS1088 ply in Australia either don't know that the ply is non standard compliant ( which I find hard to believe given the rate of return of their product) or they continue to on-sell it to boat builders with full knowledge that it doesn't meet the standard - which is more likely.

You obviously have purchased your plywood so I am not trying to give my company a plug so you buy from us. I am just trying to get some correct information out into the ether so consumers are more aware of what they are buying. There is more information on BS1088 and marine plywood on our website Denman Marine - BS1088 Gaboon Marine Plywood

Good luck with your build.

regards,

AD

Nice result by the sound of it Arron. Well done.

Originally Posted by bloggs1968

Arron,
.... There is more information on BS1088 and marine plywood on our website Denman Marine - BS1088 Gaboon Marine Plywood

I just don't have confidence in the BS1088 standards anymore. Here's my bit on why we chose the Austral Plywoods Marine Plywood (Australian manufactured) if anyone is interested. I really needed some guarantees on quality (mainly strength) and like the idea we are using a product manufactured from a 100% fully sustainable resource.

And now having completed the planking stage I can tell you this is top shelf quality stuff.

Also some images of us working with this marine plywood: Marine Plywood - Planking the Hull

Cheers

Peter

Yes, I'm with you on that. I'm OK about using this plywood for making a canoe or rowboat (as I am), but I'd want more information and hence more confidence in the product if I was building a performance boat or something to go offshore.

My understanding of BS1088 is that because its not enforceable outside the United Kingdom then if a manufacturer realises that a standards stamp of any sort is likely to make the product sell better, and if the manufacturer is confident that the product so stamped will never end up in the UK, then they will be well advised to add the stamp regardless of how the product stacks up against the standard. It may be a wonderful standard, and may be well earnt when the product is sent somewhere where it is actually enforceable, but in this country it should be regarded as nothing more then a marketing ploy. You would have to have great faith in the honesty of Asian plywood manufacturers to think otherwise.

cheers
Arron

Totally agree Aaron,

In my opinion this is the stamp of genuine assurance ...



I doubt you would find anything like this on any imported stuff, although having said that I am sure there is good quality imported marine ply around.

Its just that there is no recourse to claim anything if any of the imported stuff fails because its not produced to any Australian enforceable standard - unless of course the importer/distributor provides a guarantee but unless they really genuinely believe in the quality of the product they are importing and selling and have good insurance I doubt importers/distributors of imported marine ply would.

I reckon it is very much a case of buyer beware with the imported stuff no matter how good the "claims of quality" are, unless they are backed up solidly with a water-tight (pun intended) guarantee of quality which gives you a potential pathway for compensation if the product fails.

Glad yours has worked out well for you too.

Cheers for now

Peter

Excuse me but haven't we been in this space before.

Peter your opinion is respected but please tone it down statements like "unless of course the importer/distributor provides a guarantee but unless they have good insurance I doubt importers/distributors of imported marine ply would"
are I think you well aware inaccurate and inflammatory.

Cheers

Hi m2c1Iw,

My apologies. Nothing bad was intended. I'm not sure where I went wrong here.

I just think its wise to try and get as much assurance as you can no matter whether its plywood or any other material. Doesn't have to be just marine ply.

If something comes with a guarantee I think you can safely assume you are in a better situation than if it doesn't come with any type of guarantee. I am still not sure how this could be inflammatory.

Honda outboards are known for their quality/reliability and its no surprise they also carry a five year warranty, the highest of any outboard manufacturer (not 100% sure though). This speaks volumes for the level of trust they have in their own product which in turn instills a degree of confidence - with me anyway.

I can't see anything wrong with this line of thinking, perhaps others see it differently but either way thank you for respecting my opinion.

Regards

Peter

Peter,
What I object to is your blanket statement that importers/distributors will not or do not guarantee the product they sell.

While this could be true for some it is not for all.

I have used imported products from reputable suppliers with the utmost confidence that if I was to receive inferior product those suppliers would make good.
Equally I have used Austral product with confidence even though I can find no reference to a guarantee on their website.

Yes Austral are certified and it is good that you support a local product while pointing out pitfalls but I simply ask that you are factual and do not denigrate all other products.

Now I am a mere backyard builder with limited experience however I have read and listened to professionals who build from local and selected imported marine ply with equal confidence so that is good enough for me.

Thankyou

m2c1Iw,

Please read my message again.

I said I "doubt", which happens to be quite true. I do doubt that all importers and distributors of imported marine ply provide a good strong rock solid guarantee. I can't see for the life of me how this is inflammatory.

And I do believe a strong guarantee on any type of product is a very good indication of the manufacturer/importer/distributor's own confidence in their product. Ok, so you may not agree, but there is no need to bully me about it.

Some people look for the type and length of a products guarantee and feel it is important, some don't. I am one of those who take notice of what standards a product has been manufactured to and whether those standards are actually being enforced/policed and I also take notice of the type and length of any guarantee or warranty.

I would have thought I was an example of the vast majority.

Regards

Peter

No I don't believe I am bullying you, at least I hope not but I am calling you on your statements.

Your initial post and I quote
"Its just that there is no recourse to claim anything if any of the imported stuff fails because its not produced to any Australian enforceable standard - unless of course the importer/distributor provides a guarantee but unless they really genuinely believe in the quality of the product they are importing and selling and have good insurance I doubt importers/distributors of imported marine ply would."

is unqualified.

A couple of points since you do not believe this is inflammatory.
1. You have posted this knowing an importer, Denman Marine has already commented here and rebuked your statements on another thread.
2. You choose to ignore the fact that on top of any applicable standards and certifications Australia does have a Trade Practices Act dealing with merchantable quality.

I am not here to protect Denman marine nor do I derive any benefit from them. I am however intrigued as to why you have promoted Austral ply on more than one occasion here while the way I see it you chipp unfairly at other suppliers.
OK maybe I'm just argumentative as well.

I remain interested to know what the guarantee and or warranty Austral publish for their product.

Ah ... Denman Marine again. Now I understand.

To be frank I find it ridiculous we all have to walk on egg shells so as not to interrupt Denman Marine from continually and unashamedly promoting/selling their product on this website.

Heaven forbid if someone dares suggest an alternative view that in any way hints that there is an alternative quality brand (and has the courtesy to give reasons why) to what Denman Marine is selling.

I am starting to seriously think this is more a Denman Marine promotional forum than a wood working forum.

And in that previous thread you mention, I did commit the cardinal sin in suggesting there is an alternative marine plywood brand that I genuinely believe is first rate ... and is Australian .. and gave reasons why I thought as such. It resulted in comments that appeared to attempt to discredit the Australian manufactured marine plywood product and the stringent quality standards that are in place. I thought those negative comments were not only totally inappropriate but also a little laughable considerng the range of Australian marine plywood manufacturing quality standards are amongst the very best in the world.

I think we have both said enough, poor 'ole Aaron must be wondering what is going on within his thread.

Peter

Arron

Good news stories always welcome.
The standard of the material you received is probably all down to the quality control of the supplier Bunnings use.
In sydney at least, I understand that is Gunnersens, who have a reputation to uphold.
When I first tried to purchase ply for my project, my local supplier was out of stock because even he had just rejected a shipment from the importer.
However, we should still stand up and do the QC job when stuff arrives in our driveway in case the supply chain misses something, for whatever reason.

Colin

Originally Posted by bloggs1968

You obviously have purchased your plywood so I am not trying to give my company a plug so you buy from us. I am just trying to get some correct information out into the ether so consumers are more aware of what they are buying. There is more information on BS1088 and marine plywood on our website Denman Marine - BS1088 Gaboon Marine Plywood

Good luck with your build.

regards,

AD

Actually I would give Mr Denman's company a plug too.

Arron is completely right that a lot of the gaboon being imported in recent years has been shocking - with all the importers scrambling to find the cheapest worldwide source of "gaboon" ply.

A lot of that ply was really crappy because customers were looking for the cheapest price too - paper thin veneers on the outside, inside veneers of poplar, glue staining on the outer ply because it was too thin, some delamination problems.

Because us lot were trying to get the cheapest stuff.

Mr Denman broke that cycle by starting to bring good gaboon in from Europe which is more expensive than the mostly Chinese stuff, but excellent quality.

So now we have some choice in the marketplace. Denman also supplies gaboon ply to a number of outlets. If someone has gaboon, just ask them what the brand is and where it comes from

This is not to say that the Chinese stuff was all bad, but it was from a wide range of different manufacturers with no quality control from the importers and from some of the factories.

Best wishes

MIK

There are none so blind as those who don't want to see.

While any timber can be used to produce a marine grade plywood that doesn't mean that it is an ideal timber for a given purpose, weight and strength being the two main issues that spring to mind. As has also been previously stated, any marine plywood can be built to BS 1088 or any other standard for that matter, the point that needs to be kept in mind is that the plywood is actually made to that standard and is certified as complying with that standard.

Now while Australian Hoop Pine is a great boatbuilding timber it is too heavy for a lot of applications, especially if you are building a smaller size boat. I also would not use Meranti as it too is too heavy.

I have the plans for a Kohler Eco 7.5 cat that I was going to build but now won't due to the poor quality of Gaboon that is generally available and while Andrew's Gaboon is of excellent quality I find that it is out of my price range given the number of sheets that I would require. If I were to build the boat with Hoop Pine the resultant boat would float well below its DWL.

Horses for courses.