Thread: looking at building a timber strip kayak, just a few questions

G'day anewhouse

firstly, I'm 6'2", 100+kgs
My current & last boats are 12', & most of my kayaking was grade 1 & 2 whitewater in
slalom boats - 3.6M x 600mm (12ft x 2ft) or polo bats around 8ft long. I modified
one of those slalom boats for fishing in Port Philip Bay... everything, including a
very short rod was velcroed or strapped to the deck. Never caught anything, but had
many cramped hours off Elwood & St Kilda drowning worms. When that got too boring or
painful, I'd go & 'play' in the chop break (not really a surf break) along the beach.

In fact, I have only ever once paddled a kayak longer than 13' - a wonderfully
comfortable but heavy plastic sea kayak double - about 18ft x 30".

So I'd argue a short boat can be entirely useable by a grown man, if not an especially
grown-up one !!

You are correct - there is no Mill Ck 15. Just a 13 & a 16.5 My bad. And CLC's
over-sight. There should be one! (I thought there used to be one, but maybe I'm
getting confused with MIK's Eurekas.)

Agree that a longer boat on any cross-section will be more stable, require less
concentration, cruise faster, & be faster when you need to be. (Unless the original
is an utter pig that needs burning.)

Agree that a well-designed 24" wide boat *can* be more stable than a badly designed 29"
one. Have done it myself as above in two 24" boats. Suspect that the Mill Ck 13 is not
that badly designed 29" boat, although I object to the hard sheer - I like a dropped
sheer panel for a narrower effective paddling width.

The Mill Creek thought was actually sparked by the combination of Kevin's (KJL38)
comments in posting #30 about ease of use, combined with Chikoroll's planned useage
in #33, plus Chiko has indicated that he is not a particularly experienced paddler.
MC13 is particularly forgiving of less-than-slick entry & exit.
Then toss in the fact that I am always looking for short-cuts.... on a completely
clean sheet of paper, MC13 would be a strong contender for the role.

However, it is all a bit hypothetical. Chiko has his heart set on a strip boat, which Mill
Creek is not.

cheers
AJ

I'd support several of your comments.

Yes, CLC should have a MC15 given the popularity and success of their MC13.

A grown man certainly can use a kayak less than 15' but it depends what he uses it for.

I think I was trying to argue that for the sort of use I imagined Chikoroll putting his kayak to, less than 15' would begin to have some disadvantages.

I have a 13'6" kayak, but that is a whitewater kayak, designed to negotiate rapids. In fact in about 1969 it was a state of the art slalom kayak. I find it good to fish from because of its stability, but tedious to paddle any distance on flat water and a beginner would find it very difficult to keep going straight.

I also have a 10'6" kayak which is even slower. It is a surfyak. Great fun in the surf, but not much good for anything else.

I can understand Chikoroll's fascination with the idea of building a stripper. There is just so much flexibility possible in the design and the potential for some very creative inlay or patterns. I have built four strippers and think it is most unlikely that I would ever build a S&G even though I know there are some brilliant, successful S&G designs out there.

Originally Posted by anewhouse

I think I was trying to argue that for the sort of use I imagined Chikoroll putting his kayak to, less than 15' would begin to have some disadvantages.

Overall I agree. That's why I suggested MC15. But there isn't one. So...

I have a 13'6" kayak, but that is a whitewater kayak, designed to negotiate rapids. In fact in about 1969 it was a state of the art slalom kayak. I find it good to fish from because of its stability, but tedious to paddle any distance on flat water and a beginner would find it very difficult to keep going straight.

what sort is it? Olymp 4 ?
Had an Olymp 6 for a while. Heart-breaking to paddle in a straight line. Ended up
giving it away & using my Equipe for everything. Including fishing in Pt. Philip Bay.

Thinking about it, despite building about a dozen of them, I never measured a slalom
boat. Was told they are 12ft long (3.6M). Is this not correct? Are they actually 4M ?

Strip boats *are* beautiful. Maybe, one day...

cheers
AJ

Would you believe I have owned those two kayaks since 1975 and I can't remember ever running a tape measure over them? For 33 years I have been quoting the lengths in my previous post.

I just checked with the tape measure. It was a bit awkward because of the place they are stored, but I think the Lettman is somewhere around 3.9 metres, which is about 13 feet. The surfyak looks more like 3 metres or 10 feet.

Tho photo isn't mine, but it definitely is the same. Mine is in much worse shape than this one, but still quite usable. Because I borrowed the mould in 1975 and was told it was 1969 Lettman Olymp and I just accepted that. Perhaps you can tell me exactly which model it is. I had a lot of fun in it in places like the rapids at Childowlah on the Murrumbidgee.

Sorry, can't tell for sure. It's over 25 years since I saw the two boats side-by-side.
What I can remember is that the ribs running fore & aft from the knee indents were
deeper & sharper in the 4 than the 6. The nose & tail were broader & flatter in the 6.
I suspect the photo is a 6.

Of course, it could also be another case of being told wrong info, just like the length...
What I was told were two variants of Olymp may have been two different models of
Lettner - very similar boats so probably same designer. No internet in 1982 so couldn't google it !!

Have now got a week or two off work following minor surgery. Might have to have a play with
KF - figure out how to use it. Am used to Hulls which operates in much the same way I think.
Draw the shape, request calculations, tweak the shape & see what happens to the calcs,
refine the tweaks based on the change in calcs. Very simple graphics. But designs panels
only, not a rounded shape.

cheers

Chikoroll,
Don't worry about the length of the boat in regards to cartopping it, I've driven thousands of km with kayaks of 5.4m and longer on a Nissan Micra. Just use saddles, commercial ones or make your own, and it should be fine.

b.o.a.t,
Slalom kayaks used to be 4m but they reduced the minimum length a few years ago so the Olymps would be 4m.
My early suggestion about a wider kayak was based on my erroneous assumption that chiko wouldn't be rolling it. As he intends to learn I think somewhere around 55cm should give the right balance of ease of rolling and stability for fishing. For someone not intending to roll and using it as Chikoroll plans to I think a Rob Roy style kayak would be ideal. There is a beautiful woodstrip one by Chuck Carpenter third from the bottom of this page. http://www.newfound.com/launch_canoe.htm

Kelvin

Originally Posted by KJL38

For someone not intending to roll and using it as Chikoroll plans to I think a Rob Roy style kayak would be ideal. There is a beautiful woodstrip one by Chuck Carpenter third from the bottom of this page. http://www.newfound.com/launch_canoe.htm

Kelvin

That is n.i.c.e.

Only trouble with these gorgeous clear finished strippers...
I'd be scared to use one in case I scratched it. As I certainly would because for me,
the magic of boating is about the land/water interface rather than the open ocean.
One tries not to interface too closely, but mistakes get made...

Thanks for the info about slalom boat length too Kevin. Didn't matter while just pulling
'em out of the mould and paddling (& sometimes breaking) 'em. But it's nice to know.

cheers
AJ

Howdy AJ,

Strippers are pretty durable and not that hard to repair.

Build it
Use it

Let other people worry about the possibility of scratching something beautiful.

Personally I love scratches and visible (but neatly executed) repairs!

Chickoroll, I would not get hung up on modifying a boat at this stage. It is like trying to redesign the wheel. Choose a good widely accepted design, build it as best you can and with the lighter timbers available. Paddle it, muck around in it, fish in it until you know what you like and don't like about it.

By now others seeing you out on the water and in the carpark are commenting what a nice looking boat you have and someone will want to buy it IF it is light enough. Now if you are really not happy with the design and think that some modifications may improve your enjoyment of the boat then sell it to one of these people and build another. You will not loose money on the cost of material and your labour is part of the enjoyment. Any profit over this is a bonus.

Keep it light and enjoyable, no one wants to paddle a tub.

prozac

cheers mate, i think i will go for the design posted up (unless someone can point flaws in it)
with the next one i will do as you said and modify it somewhat to suit my needs

just a heads up about where i am at with this- just putting all suitable sized trimming offcuts aside - timbers for the decoration so far are blackbean, Jarrah, American Oak, American Cherry and Aussie Red Cedar (will most likely cut these to 1 or 2mm thick and router a groove for them into the kayak to keep weight down)


with the hull, does it need to built with full-length strips, or can it be multiple lengths joined together?

About the only full length strips in my kayaks are the first one on each side that goes on the sheer line. I find scarfing strips is easier than trying to handle a 5 or 6 metre long strip of timber. In fact my last 5 metre kayak was built from 1.8 metre long strips. The one before that was 4.5 metres long and built from 2.4 metre strips. Some people use full length strips. Given the choice, I would use shorter strips.

Hi all,

Great thread, which I've been following with interest.

There is (or was) a Mill Creek 15' version - lines are in (from memory) Chris' book "Stitch and Glue Boatbuilding" which give a good overview of the mill Creeks. However, in the book he states the 15' is less stable than the 13 and not as parctical (in the sense of using it as a double) as the 16.5, so he doesn't push it.

Some have been built though, and I'm sure CLC would sell the plans if they still have them (not listed on the site but may be worth an email, they're very friendly).

I don't have a Mill Creek, but it's on the list as a light, practical boat for fishing, and that's what a lot of people use them for. So worth a look.

Also have alook at David Payne's sea kayaks (www.payneyachts.com) - I am building his TK and K1 boats and they're great, and I've heard his sea kayaks are good. He includes a strip-built one in his range.

I've never heard a bad thing about Guillemots though.

The simple answer is to just build multiple kayaks one for fishing, one for speed and rolling, one for cruising...and so on.

Good luck with the build.

Oh, I'm also using Paulownia inthe TK1 - great to work with and really light. Will shave a kg or two off the total weight compared to WRC (on a ply boat).

Regards,
Darren

Originally Posted by TK1

There is (or was) a Mill Creek 15' version - lines are in (from memory) Chris' book "Stitch and Glue Boatbuilding" which give a good overview of the mill Creeks. However, in the book he states the 15' is less stable than the 13 and not as parctical (in the sense of using it as a double) as the 16.5, so he doesn't push it.

THANKYOU DARREN !!!!!!!
For a while there I thought I was losing my marbles.
Well, more of them than I can account for as missing anyway.
cheers
AJ

Chickoroll, if you were to contact the supplier of the plans for the boat you were considering and asked their opinion I think it would at least narrow down your choices to 2 or 3 models. You will want to provide the proposed purpose of use, whether rough or smooth water, and don't forget to indicate your level of paddling experience plus your height and weight.

I did this with Guillemot and received a prompt response from Nick Schade with 2 recommendations based on my criteria and importantly one non-recommendation based on difficulty of build.

prozac