Thread: Setting up for boat building

Originally Posted by ScottyK

I have friends who have taken the "buy before you need aproach" and they just end up with a shed ful of stuff they dont need.

It is not necessarily a direct correlation, but I have noticed that many with this mindset never get round to building something.

Which may not be bad at all providing that the tool thing is what they like rather than the building.

From years of being involved with people building their own boats at different levels ... when a person is nervous about the idea of building they work out nice ways to get distracted.

Usually in some sort of search for perfection. "Perfect" Tools, "perfect" workbench, "perfect" building method, "perfect" building space. etc etc etc.

Again there is nothing wrong with this - so long as they are happy with the process they are going through.

That is the biggest advantage of making do with what you have and buying stuff only when you need it or can afford it or can look at it as a "fun extra" - that is if the building itself is important to you.

One interesting example is on the Boatdesign forums where a lot of people talk endlessly about what software to get and what stuff is really cool. But when I go to their websites there are plenty of the coolest computer generated photo-realistic pictures of the boats they have designed - but no photos of the real thing.

Which again is OK - so long as they are enjoying themselves.

But I wish I could afford all the stuff they talk about and had the time to work out how to use it fluently )

MIK

Hello, I am slowly reading through the forums after being directed here from the Boat Design Forum.

Sorry for digging up this thread from page 3.

I am looking to build a boat, 14.5 m which the naval architect assures me is well within the abilities of the average beginner.

I will be starting from scratch, hence my interest in this thread.

I will be putting in a shed of some type to work in and judging by the posts, buying tools as I need them!

For a large boat like this, how much room would you need to work around it, I can imagine that once the hull is there it is going to be pretty cramped if I build it just big enough.

I was also interested in storing wood. A big shed in Queensland would probably not keep wood at the correct moisture levels, do builders have seperate humidity controlled rooms or do they just buy enough for the bit they are working on?

Concrete floor I am guessing to keep the moisture levels down, definately a power hook up for tools and lighting. Is running water necessary? A kitchenette sounds good too.

As I am starting from scratch I have the opportunity to avoid any common mistakes so any advice you can give me will be gratefully received.

Mark

I'm not sure which NA assured you a 44' boat was

well within the abilities of the average beginner

but frankly, speaking as an NA and professional builder, this is about the most gross exhalation of the truth as one could imagine. This smacks in the face of a Bruce Roberts type of thing, all advertising hype and no substance.

I'll try not to discourage you, but a very skilled builder, with several small boats under his belt would be hard pressed to complete a project of this scope, let alone a novice.

I've built a few boats of this scale. The last was a 48' sailboat, which took 7 years to complete and tens of thousands dollars and many thousands of man hours. I also had the luxury of a large, well equipped shop with nearly every tool and facility necessary. Also available were several very skilled employees that could be asked to come by and help with a particularly difficult task on occasion.

Pray tell who was this NA that told you a 44' yacht was something a beginner could handle? This isn't to say you couldn't, but it would be the very rare exception.

To directly answer your questions, your wood could be stored in a shed, the moisture content will stabilize regardless of what you do. Keep it dry and out of the sun and it'll do it's thing all by itself. If purchasing "green" lumber, then consider a solar kiln to season it quickly, but gently.

You will need as much room around the boat as you can afford. Minimums for a build like this would be 2 to 3 meters around every side, preferably more.

A concrete floor is simple and easy to keep clean, but also difficult to work on and attach things to, which is often necessary. I prefer wooden floors myself, but concrete will work as will dirt if well dry, tamped and covered.

You'll want as much "accommodation" as you can afford too. Spending countless hours on site requires bathrooms, sinks, running water (hot would be nice), a shower is a handy thing, so is a garden hose. A small fridge for beer, though a cooler will work and of course electricity. You'll need lots of lighting and as much natural as you can arrange too. You'll also need the amps to run some pretty serious tools.

Originally Posted by Jislizard

I am looking to build a boat, 14.5 m which the naval architect assures me is well within the abilities of the average beginner.

You don't mean 14.5 FEET do you? That's well within the abilities of your average beginner, but if you're looking at 14.5 METRES, do yourself a favour and build the tender first.

Richard
as usual, I can't find fault with PAR's arguments, though the wooden floor surprised me

Which would you like to bang your head into . . .

Originally Posted by PAR

Which would you like to bang your head into . . .

What, and get splinters?

Richard

Many thanks for the advice and in particular PAR's warnings.

I am looking at building a Jonque de Plaisance Jonque de Plaisance® | Welcome and in defence of the NA they have tried to sell me the hull and deck kits from their shipyards in India or Thailand on several occassions. They didn't say it would be easy, just that it was within the ability of an amateur, and we all know they come with various abilities!

There are 50 of them sailing around at the moment but I have been unable to find any that were self built as most of the ones I am in contact with were built at a professional shipyard abroad

I am aware (not first hand) of the various drawbacks of junks thanks to the boat design forums which are also a great source of information. I just like the look of them and now I am not allowed to work on the car (my wife insists we get it looked at professionally as it is new) I am looking for another project to drag me away from wasting hours each evening on the internet (current company excepted).

Daddles: I have also been looking at getting their 3m jonquette precisly so I can practice on the techniques and screw up on a less expensive model. It will also mean I can complete a project in a reasonable timeframe.

I am hoping to sail the 14.5 metre boat when I retire, I don't have enough time to go on long trips at the moment due to work commitments but I have joined the local yacht club and I go out as a crew member each week. I have also made a few contacts within the club who have built boats so I will not be completely alone on the build. I have set aside 20 years to work on it before retirement, if I finish early it will be a bonus. I am looking at joining a dinghy club as well so I can practice sailing and getting to grips with the sail, however would you believe, I can't find any junk rigged dinghies?!? Hopefully the 3m will fix this but I might have to go up to the 4.72m version to make it worthwhile.

Tens of thousands of dollars is actually very encouraging, to buy the 12.5m version second hand is AUD$109,000. I was just going to buy the wood gradually and never add it up. if it is going to be as 'reasonable' as that then I might keep a running total.

The NA estimates 9500 hours of labour on the project, they also told me how many years that would take if I was working full time on it as a professional ship builder so I don't think they are trying to pass it off as an easy project. they have been at great pains to explain how difficult but they have also been very supportive putting me in contact with numerous boat owners and timber merchants.

My main problem is that the NA is specifying mahogany and teak but that is a question for another thread, I have already asked and received some useful info on substituing for Australian woods from the Boat design forum and I see there are a few threads on this one that will be useful.

I will be using the Hereshoff method of boat building, so plenty of epoxy apparently, which was why I was interested in maintaining the correct moisture content of the wood stock, does drier wood respond better to the treatment or is there a point when it makes little difference if it gets any drier (diminishing returns)?

Thanks for the advice, I will go as big as I can on the shed but at least 2-3 m around the beam and the ends. I will take plenty of pics but I imagine that 20 years would be too long for anyone to follow on the forums!

All the best

Mark

RobJ, some very good responses here. I did a lot of work in a boatyard recently, although working on my own boat. Couple of things that I noticed was that there were a few large machines and plenty of hand power tools. 2 large bandsaws, one sawbench, one mitredrop saw, a large thicknesser and a combo disc/belt sander (this got used the most and second was one of the bandsaws). There was a lathe, small and large drill press and different sorts of welding gear.

In my own workshop a 10" sawbench, bandsaw (one from the boatyard), small thicknesser and 6" planer jointer and a mobile dust extractor. If you asked for the essentials, I would say the sawbench and the thicknesser. I would like to have one of those combo disc/belt sanders so add that to essentials. Lots of clamps

I have most of the electric hand tools, rarely use any of the sanding tools, belt sander occasionally. Small and medium electric drills with keyless chucks are a must. Power planer is good. A variable speed angle grinder with coarse discs, 24 or less, is very useful for bulk removal/shaping. Another useful tool is one of those anglegrinder random orbital sanders. Definitely get a good jig saw. 2 bench grinders, one with fine wheels, and the other with a coarse wheel and wire brush, is a good combo. Small drill press is useful. Heat gun too. Lots of clamps

One good solid bench, not too big. Roller stands, or planks fastened to sawhorses, for feeding long things to/from sawbench and thicknesser, is essential. Lots of clamps.

Other thing is I would prefer a wooden floor, even if it was exterior ply laid on concrete.

I've done a lot of woodwork in this shop, much boat related and plenty non boat stuff as well.

I think it was Richard who said get started and the tools will become obvious. More tools you've got, more setting up and maintenance there is. Don't need a large range of hand tools, practice lots of sharpening so you are good and quick. There's something very discouraging about even half sharp tools.

Hope this helps

Adrian

Mark, might I make a suggestion based on the experience of a good mate which in no way relates to your situation but which might save some heartache in the future.

It seems to me you've looked reasonably closely into this act of lunacy (that applies to the decision to build ANY boat, regardless of size). My advice is to invest your available funds into BUYING something that will attempt to do what you hope to do. If that means you buy a second hand plastic trailer sailor, GO FOR IT.

Get out on the water and prove that what you want to do is worth doing ... and indeed desirable.

Maybe you've done this, which would be good.

A boat, any boat, be it a 7' tender or a 70' dream home, requires a hell of a lot of building. One hopes that at the end of it all, you're still in love with the boat and it fullills every dream ... bit like meeting that buxom blonde at the disco ain't it, only it takes longer with the boat (but is less painfull).

Seriously, building anything will take time. Even if you're a rich, retired, workaholic in need of a project, building this boat will take time. That building will not replace getting out there and doing it and I don't care how effectively you dream, you will never dream the reality of using the real thing.

Sooooooooo, before embarking on this dream (the build), buy an alternative and ensure that while you're building this boat, you can live the realitiy as well.

All that assumed, I admire your reality and please keep us posted so I can cheer from the sidelines.

Richard
and a rational reader of these forums would look at the boats I've built and failed to build and ponder at my personal aspirations vs the reality while comparing that situation with their own desire to build something resembling a backyard, pocket battleship.

Daddles : Agreed, I would be interested in buying a boat similar to the one I am looking at building. In fact there are around 50 of them already made and sailing around, one is even available in the Caribbean (albeit 2m shorter than the one I am looking at making) It is about AUD $109,000. Which seems a lot to pay in one go.

I am interested in knowing if 100K was less than it would cost to build yourself and they have added a little extra for their own time, or whether it would have cost more and they are selling it cheap to get shot of it.

I was thinking that if I spent that same amount of money over 20 years it would not hurt so much! Plus I would have the satisfaction of having accomplished a major project.

My wife and I have joined the boat club so we have been going out at the weekend and sailing as crew members, we were out in a 30 knot wind on Saturday with rain lashing down for the whole 3 hours, it was great!

I am intending to retire in about 20 years, I would retire tomorrow but my wife isn't keen on that. When I retire I intend to travel around Australia. I emigrated here 5 years ago and I have been to Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne on conferences a couple of times but other than that, just to and from work everyday. I haven't seen anything of Australia and that doesn't look set to change anytime soon.

I spend all evening on the internet at the moment, I am pretty sure I can spend that time better.

The sooner I build it the sooner I have to launch it and start paying harbour fees and marina costs and docking etc. I will still get to go out once a week but this time I will be paying for it and not the guy whose boat I am sailing on! If I can drag the build out for at least 10 years it should be nearing completion around about the time I am ready to start sailing it. I would also have to buy a trailer and a car capable of towing it. The longer it is being built the less it will cost me in extras.

I could wait 20 years and then just buy one I suppose.

However I can only think that the price of Mahogany and Teak is going up not down, so buying a new boat will cost more, and if I can't find a junk style boat, and there aren't that many around at the moment, I will not have the energy to build anything in nor the money to spend on the wood.

Ideally I would like to build as part of a co-operative, team sports are more fun! My wife wants to join in and my father-in-law is interested as well so I will not be entirely alone (not sure if that is a good thing) in the build however most of it will be just me in the evening.

Mark

Yer a stubborn bugga aren't you Mark

Sadly, not a lot of boat building gets done in the evening. I don't know why, but it doesn't. Don't let that stop you though, maybe you're different.

I still reckon your best bet is to start with the tender or a daysailer, something a lot smaller. Even my wee Redback (at 7'6") turned out to be quite a build and you do need something to bum around in while building the big boat. This isn't trying to put you off (gawd knows we need ambitious people in the world), but experience tells me there is a lot of mucking about between buying the plans and splashing bubbly over the decking. I think I'd feel more comfortable if you'd built something useful and basic first, if only to convince you that all that sanding is worth the bother.

Good luck on the build. For what it's worth, I saw a strip planked Herreshoft in a shed a few years back (awesome beast), then saw the finished hull at a boat show a few years later (even more awesome). It's a grand dream alright.

Richard

100,000 is really cheap for yacht of this size equipped for cruising. Or even fitted out for sailing around the local harbour.

Be aware that the size of boats that people cruise on a budget tends to centre around the 36ft mark with far fewer smaller or larger. Larger boats are difficult unless the person has some sort of significant income while cruising or keeping well out of areas with developed economies.

Also there is the manpower aspect. I have no doubts about my ability to come alongside in something around the mid thirty mark by myself without too much trouble, but add the extra metres and it becomes much trickier. Everything becomes a lot harder when a few feet is added.

Try to have a look at Jerry Cornell's book that surveyed cruising sailors around the world about their real experience. It is getting a bit long in the tooth now - but though some things have changed others have not.

Best wishes
Michael

Daddles : I am stubborn, it is true, but also a plodder with occassional periods of intense activity. I don't think I am much different from the average boat builder, except that the average boat builder has actually built a boat.

Evenings in Brisbane get dark quickly but stay warm through out the whole year (relative to England). Without lights on I fall asleep around 19:00 but if well lit I can stay awake until 22:00 and still be fairly active, except in Summer when the heat makes everything too much effort.

I think I will take your advice on building a small boat first, if only so I can point to it every time my wife asks if I am ever going to finish something!

Boatmik : Thanks for letting me know what the cost of a finished yatch would be around. I have no experience pricing them and having seen ads for boats as little as 10K for a 10m and others for 300k it is hard to gauge the value. The Naval Architect has recommended I buy the hull, deck and cabin kits ready-built. If the price of these comes anywhere near the 100K mark I will know to just buy the ready made yacht.

The boats I am looking at come with a bow thruster in the 12m + above plans and the junk rig is apparently simple enough to be sailed by one person, we shall see.

I am picking the brains of the local boat club members but most of them can't understand why I would want a wooden boat when there are better materials around. The ones who can undestand wanting a wooden boat can't understand why I would want a Junk when there are better boats around.

At around 5000 euros for the plans for the 14m version I want to make sure that I finish the boat, I have no idea how much the matching 3m dinghy will cost but it won't be cheap (I did ask for a discount thought).

I might go off the junk theme and get a cheap plan for a strip plank dinghy to throw together to practice the technique. I can always sell it if it floats.

Mark

The wood side is fine - don't let anyone put you off from that point of view. As the boat is strip planked if you do the specified job with epoxy it will be equal or less maintenance than a standard production glass boat.

The junk rig is a reasonable choice - particularly as the boat has been designed for it from the start.

If you haven't I would suggest trying to get some overnight experience on a boat. Even Chartering one with some friends so you can get the feel of the spaces and the routine. Or see if someone at the local clubs need someone to help with a delivery. Try to get some sea miles if you don't have this type of experience already.

Generally inexperienced people choose their boats from the amount of accommodation so always tend to move larger, but experienced people will focus on practicalities of the the outside of the boat so tend to move smaller.

The other thing is cost. a 36ft boat will be probably much less than 3/4 the cost and labour of a 42 footer. Going up a size on winches and deck gear hurts a lot financially. I have spent a lot of time maintaining boats and a 36 footer looks like a toy next to a 42 footer when it comes to doing work on the thing.

But having broken the subject ... i won't labour it any more.

I do think you have made some good decisions already, but keep doing more reserarch before you decide on the size.

If you haven't been aboard one of the boats yet, try to do so - of various sizes.

Best wishes
Michael