Thread: Electric motorsailing

If only it were as easy as his math says it is . . .

His system uses 8 12 VDC batteries (why) so there a 280 pound (130 kilo) chunk. Have a good look at his costs page and if this doesn't make you wince, then you're better then me.

He's done a lot of work, but the usual suspects rear up their ugly heads and stick their tongues out at you. Range and cost . . .

Thanks for your reply PAR.
I've done a lot of motorsailing with a bigger boat than mine , and yes , it did work well .
But that was with an ICE engine.
I've done some with my own boat too , with her ICE engine , but she is also a pretty handy sail boat , in her own right.
I agree , range is a problem , particularly when you are on a swing mooring , and can't avail yourself of shore power.
The solution often used in the "industry" is to use a generator , usually a Honda portable generator , on deck !.
That is out of the question for me , it wouldn't last 5 minutes here .
And having an engine to drive a generator , to drive an electric motor seems to me a bit risky , putting "all your eggs in one basket". If any component in this mix fails , then the system doesn't work.
What I am contemplating is getting a boat that is primarily a motor boat , but has been designed with auxiliary sail power , a bit more than steadying sails.
If I set it up as a hybrid powered boat , with the batteries used as on board ballast , it would mean I have the ICE engine for propulsion and for recharging the batteries , but that I can electric motor sail , when I am fishing under sail. I don't believe the sails would be adequate , on their own.
Or that the electric motor would suffice , on its own.
But together , they should do well , for fishing , under sail.
That is the way I'd prefer to be fishing , quietly , not too fast , and under a steadying sail.
But the power of an ICE engine is ready , at the turn of a key.
And the boat I am contemplating is easy to walk around , and fish from , after all , that is what it was designed for !.
Electric Yacht - Our Weekender Hybrid Systems is one of the hybrid setups I am contemplating .
The boat at this time has a Perkins 108 , that drives it pretty well.
It isn't a good sailboat , but should make a good motorsailer . The question is , what to use as the motor , when fishing under sail , which is most of the time.
Idling a diesel around is not good for the engine , and spoils the fishing , I'd prefer the quiet of electric power.
The alternative is to go to a boat that is a better sailer , but I believe that would compromise comfort , and make me a lot busier .
Your thoughts ?.
Rob J.

PAR is on the money.

The electric technology is not mature for normal boats that are required to do normal things.

A bit of a chop and a headwind can easily halve the smooth water range of an electric boat and you can't just pop in and top up the tanks.

Electric is still limited to short range and smooth water and smaller boats, unless you have a lot of money available.

Best wishes
Michael

I was hoping you would contribute Michael , because you speak from experience too.
Mate , absolutely no argument from me .
No way , would I go electric only , here.
But I'm talking about fishing under sail , in this case , cheating , motorsailing , with the help of hybrid electric power .
I've found that we normally snoop around at 4-5 knots , and as soon as we get a strike , we can "depower" immediately, while we reel the fish in.
The sailing part is easy for HS , she does it well , but the fishing part is certainly compromised , there just isn't the room , particularly when we seem to be constantly tacking , or jibing , and there is fishing "stuff" in the road.
My next boat I reckon the compromise will be the other way , great for fishing , but definitely will need help , in the sailing stakes.
And yes , I'll be happy to know I've got a diesel there , at the turn of a key.
Although , having said that , if I don't have to use the diesel , I'll be quite happy , I prefer to sail.We try to sail off and on to the mooring , with HS.
But the (inevitable) compromise I want to swing in the direction of comfort , and ease of operation.
If I can't do that , I won't be going out .
Today is a perfect day to go out , but like yesterday , I'm just too sore and achey (sp) , so I've stayed home.
Any suggestions greatfully received.
Regards Rob J.

Rob, do your best to pick a displacement sailing cruiser, rather then a motorsailor or powerboat conversion contraption. Efficiency through the water is the name of the game in low power applications, which I have a small bit of experience in. Starting with a wave making, drag producing pig of a boat, isn't going to help electric or sail propulsion, not to mention just costs more with a conventional ICE too. A slippery hull will improve every aspect of both sail and electric propulsion.

One of the primary reasons these electric systems don't work well (short range) is the weight of the storage system (batteries). If you truly have sufficient storage to power up an electric boat with an 8 to 10 hour WOT adventure, the bilge will be full of batteries, the cabin likely filled with hydrogen gas and the 10 tons of batteries will be all the boat can carry. Of course the 10 KW generator will be on deck running for the remaining portion of the day, charging up the batteries.

Recent battery advances are showing some promise and is basically why electric cars have gained a small foot hold. They've halved the weight, but a group 24, 110 amp, 12 VDC lead acid battery is still 35 - 40 pounds (16 - 18 kilo). Even if you could find Lithium Polymer batteries big enough to consider at a 10th of the weight, 7.5 KW bank will weigh a lot and this just gives you energy storage for a 10 HP engine across 1/3 a days operations! This doesn't include on board charging, power control(s), shore power charging, etc.

"Some day", they keep telling us, but I've been hearing this from the electric motor freaks since the 1960's! It's right around the corner they all have said, well I'm still waiting . . .

PAR , I'd put a photo of this boat up , but its not mine yet.
But it is an old style cray boat , pretty slippery , 27 ft and about 4 ton.
What I am looking for in my next boat.
Something I can take out in to open waters , usually 3-6 metre seas , fishing .
Preferably suitable for fishing under sail , so nothing twitchy , something easy to sail.
Something that is easy on this arthritic body , no more banging from side to side .
There are very similar boats to this one working here , cray boats , that do a lot of motor sailing , but they are 8-10 ft bigger .
There is also a 60ft cray boat that does a lot of motor sailing , with its huge staysails . Basically , he keeps his boat at 8 knots , but often his engine is under no load , just keeping the pumps going.
Another cray boat man , a friend of mine , had a 50 footer built in Huon Pine , capable of motor sailing.
What I am contemplating would be just like them , only a lot smaller .
I also happen to enjoy slow trawling about for fish , so I have a low power requirement , that I'd like to do under sail.
But I reckon she would be found wanting at times , thats why I'm contemplating getting that prop turning a bit , under electric power .
I'm NOT looking to have a big powerful electric powered boat , if I want sustained power , I'll go to the diesel , I'm just looking to cheat a little , on the sailing , fishing under sail , using a hybrid diesel electric drive.
The boat has a wet well that can be blocked up easily , if wanted .
I'd block it off permanantly , and put the batteries in there , in a sealed case , with positive ventilation .
I've done a fair bit of fishing in 'couta boats , I suppose thats where I got the taste for fishing under sail .
They are classical , beautiful fishing boats , but they would be too much for my hands , and they are open boats . The idea of me getting a 'couta boat belong to dreams of the past , its not appropriate for me , now.
Regards Rob J.

I've found a 14 page file sent to me about a year ago by Nanni , dealing with their hybrid.
Very interesting stuff , but particularly that dealing with motorsailing.
I haven't figured out how I'll get it on this forum , so maybe I'll try a couple of relevent pages.
Regards Rob J.

OK , lets try this .
Its exactly what I'm talking about.
Rob J.

As some of you know , I've had a real interest in electric boating for some years now.
And I've been on the "Electric Boat " yahoo forum for quite some time too .
But what is worrying me is that I'm "edited" now , and some of my posts denied , because I bring up real concerns on safety , people basing important safety and performance related on opinions , not fact.
In this short thread on Wooden Boat Forum , PAR and MIK has voiced their misgiving about electric power , and I welcome their opinions .
But on the "electric boat " forum my latest misgiving just hasn't been allowed to be posted.
I wasn't flaming or anything like that , just relating the contents of a book I've just read "wooden fishing boats" , which deals with the fishing boats of SA.
And repeating what Garry Stewart has advised me time and again "don't compromise safety".
My previous "locking of horns" was about the deliberate withholding of information to insurers . How can we expect them to act with integrity , when we don't display any ourselves ?.
And previous to that , I copped a spanking for relating my experiences with Coast Guard here , and why boats got in to trouble.
Oh , this post will probably get me banned from "Electric Boat " , but what is a bloke to do ?.
Safety to me is paramount , should I say nothing , when I see safety being compromised ?.
Rob J.

I have no experience with the "electric boat" forum, but if they can't take the reality of evaluation by their peers or even those interested and knowledgeable parties, their little group is doomed to be nothing more then a little boys club house and "no girls allowed" posted on their door.

I'm a double engineer with a NA discipline attached, so I'd consider myself a reasonable and researched peer with anyone over there. If they'd like to email me, I'd be happy to recite my concerns and misgivings about the current status of electric propulsion. I think Mik said it best when he noted that the concept in all current forms is mature enough to be viable at the moment. It may very well be some day, but in the present once all the apples are counted and compared to alternative propulsion sources.

PAR (and MIK).
I've just got a reply to my request for a reason for my posts being barred.
I can forward them to you , if you wish , but basically , the forum owner doesn't want to hear of my posts on safety etc.
He believes my CG slant on safety is "over the top" .
Oh , words fail me for now , I'm very disappointed , and disallusioned.
Yes , I have been strongly influenced by my CG experience , which is only over about 2 years , I might add.
But just going down the coast with a (younger than me) professional fisherman , and have him show me were professional fishermen have died in his working life , and why they died , is very sobering.
To read the book dealing with the Sth Aust fishing fleet , even more so.
Should I erase all of that from my mind ?, (if I could) , or learn from history , learn from those unfortunate experiences.
I would like to believe that electric power will be in my future , but it won't be at the expense of safety .
Once again , I apologise for a jumbled post , I'm one disallusioned person right now.
Regards Rob J.

You must remember Rob, the "electric boat" folks are feeling a bit like Wilbur and Orville Wright, the builders of the first airplane (now disputed). They were very secretive about their work, partly because they wanted to be first, but also because of all the nae sayers of the world that told them they can't or shouldn't attempt it. They grew discouraged enough to ban all but trusted local workers, including parents from their effort on the windy beach, from which they eventually took off.

Having someone call attention to things, they already know as difficult, disconcerting and problematic tends to some off, while other openly admit to the "issues". The ones that do openly admit the flaws and difficulties, will likely be the ones that can persevere to a successful outcome, passing the worry warts along the way.

Don't let it bother you, as the net is a sterile place and appropriate emotional context, isn't available to help in opinion formulation on someone's words.

Lastly the CG isn't always right and often over react and over emphasize things that aren't as bad as they might seem. In their mantra, any chance of a problem, is good enough to warrant concern and possably reaction. As a result many regulations are developed that haven't any real bearing on actual implementation in real life. This is enough for some (the worry warts usually) to say the CG is too bothersome to be considered. In the end, the very people that are having difficulty with you, will have to stand on the carpit and make their "pitch" to get these things approved for commersial and/or pleasure use. It's at this time that they'll have to regroup and call, probably someone like you for guidance, on how to work within the guidelines of the CG's requirements. When this time comes try to keep your #### eating grin to a minimum . . .

PAR , a couple of things.
The CG here isn't a law enforcement agency , its a well trained , but volunteer organisation that basically gets people out of the poop , if you like.
So all we deal with is rescues , and sometimes recoveries.
The training is very rigorous and thorough , and it doesn't take long before you can see and smell trouble , long before it happens.
Here is another site you might find of interest Seagoing Hybrids - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion .
If it were available to me (they don't have an agent in Australia) , I'd seriously look at the hybrid , using the Beta 35 diesel on the fishing cutter , the batteries replacing some of the internal ballast.
But there is lots more interesting stuff on the site , if you have time to read it.
Regards Rob J.

Well , I'm stunned.
I'm not allowed to talk safety on this electric forum , now it looks as though I've been banned from posting at all.
I tried to post costings for the Mastervolt , and its specifications , and costings and specifications and performance figures for the STEYR hybrid , and it looks like a "no can do".
The STEYR in particular have available detailed performance figures etc , so we can see the reality , and not the sales pitch BS , and it is very impressive.
But very , very expensive.
I'm very disappointed that this information is not allowed .
I think its almost criminal .
But , what can you do ?.
Rob J.