Thread: Wanted

The hot doggie howled at the heavens: I really HONESTLY am hanging out for an Aussie version and this blasted book showed at least 2 that took my fancy but do you think I can find a ruddy address to send away to get them? NOT A RUDDY CHANCE!!!

I think it is the first book that was ever put out by the NSW Wooden Boat Association. Contact them. Most of the best drawings were by David Payne who had a sideline in using his great detail drafting ability to produce items for household display - plans you can hang on a wall. Gorgeous stuff. But also (perhaps) an indication of where the money is! As I said PM me if you want to contact him.

Another prob I sorta have is the cost of plans in Aus... see now dont go all loopy on me here but I can get the plans for a 40ft schooner (some 60 sheets!!!) from the son of a designer in the US who is also a NA in his own right for less than I can get a design here! that phisses me off!! I mean in a way were contributing to our own demise here by simply out pricing the cost of ruddy plans so would be Ausssie boat builders source their plans ex US or UK... funny aint it?

I am just about to put the prices of my plans up! )

It is simply the size of the marketplace. Despite having quite a good web presence still 90% of my plans are sold here.

Compare me to an American Designer who is selling 90% of his plans in North America.

North America Population 298 + 33 = 331 million
Australian population = 20 million.

I would be looking pretty good if my turnover increased by 1500%.

That's why David Payne works three days a week at the Maritime Museum.
That's why Murray Isles works on the Fishing boats.
They all do other things to survive.

You want cheaper plans - you won't have ANY designers here Dingo.

We have already talked about how Alan Payne who designed two pretty revolutionary boats for the America's Cup had to spend his life designing barges and air con ducts in bulk ore carriers and doing inclining tests on cargo ships.

The guy was talented enough to have had a portfolio like Bolger.
Bolger has 800 designs to his credit - so he has learned heaps about mixing aesthetics with function with seakeeping with volume. But Alan Payne perhaps has a portfolio of 10 or 15 marketable designs - boats popular enough to keep selling. He was never able to hit his designing straps and really get going - never able to refine his skills.
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ARE PLANS EXPENSIVE?

And are the plans expensive anyhow? Some of them are - some of them aren't and very little of it is to do with price.

If a person can build the boat efficiently and it works well - the plans have succeeded and that is worth much more than $70 or $150 which is the average sort of range for plans.

You can spend the same amount and find the boat hard or impossible to build and then quickly find out that the performance and fitness for task was really about looking through the designer's rose tinted glasses - then the plans WERE NOT worth that same $70 to $150

When I was employed by Duck Flat in the late 80s and early 90s I quickly realised that designers were pretty patchy with their plans. We were selling heaps of plans all over Australia and built up a cupboard of extra information we had to add so people could actually build the boats. That's the use of businesses like Duck Flat - a good filler in of details when the designer is too busy or too remote to contact.

This is not much use for Dingo - he has a similar level of knowledge himself - but for someone further down the food chain ...
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But our biggest problem is sourcing plans... seeing a range of design choices and making a selection and then purchasing them from the source... almost impossible

Okay... heres a thing... I want ahem I would like thats bedda... I would like to find the source of an Australian designed schooner say 28ft or even 40ft... now tell me where Id find one! See now I can right now point myself to a designer in Maine that has one of each available now the smaller 28fter is $800 US and the larger is $2000US

I think most people find sourcing plans less hard than you Dingo.

You are in a corner. Traditional boats with traditional construction. I am glad you are interested in them - I CARE about those boats too - but you are probably the only bloke in Australia looking for one now.

OK - maybe there are 10 of you - but you each want different boats for different purposes and then you all have to fall in love a bit too.

Do the numbers - who is going to have drawn up something ready for you?

No Stock Plans - options of new designs are limited.

So go through the back catalogues of stuff. Because there is only one customer a decade for a particular boat and there is no impetus for the family of a long dead designer to keep the plans organised or to copy them.

Going back to the example of Alan Payne - 10 to 15 marketable designs. If a designer has 10 or 15 designs there is not going to be much turnover of plans either - as good as they are - things will probably start to become quite disorganised after 50 years.

Compare with the American designers who have output of 300 or more designs during their full time working lives - there are 300 plans to sell - into a bigger marketplace too - so its worth someones while to keep 'em in a form where thay can earn money from them.

So no historical plans in good order
(but really Dingo - just get the body and sailplans and you can work out the rest - you KNOW this stuff so well)

So why don't we cut to the chase. This is where you see how expensive those American designers you quote are really.

You are after a new CUSTOM plan. It might look like an old boat - but freshly drawn up.

American Designers charge between 5 and 12 percent of the final building cost of the boat for custom designs - the cost is of the boat PROFESSIONALLY BUILT. The cheaper rate generally means they will field phone enquiries - the more expensive end they will be visiting the site revising drawings and generally working in with the builder.

So Dingo ... a 35ft schooner (I wouldn't consider one much shorter - not enough length to spread the sail).
Let's say a pro-built $300,000
That means the designer gets $15000 at the basic end of service level. And that's in US$.

So you can't afford $15,000+ for custom plans if you are already complaining about the cost of stock ones.

ooh one can get hold of people like Mike Waller and Rob Tayler very easily and their designs are well priced good people too... but unless your into those designs your stuffed!! :mad:

Where are the Aussie designs? Where are the Aussie designers? Where are those Aussies who create something of the beauty of a Fife or a Concordia a Coaster a CC Constellation or even an Elco? Where the blazes are the blighters!!!... I want Aussie originality I want Aussie timbers I want AUSSIE!!! :mad:

If you don't burst something first! )

You are getting out of proportion here.
ELCO - they never designed many boats (they only had a couple of hullshapes and stretched things around a bit) and the plans were for their own use. They were never available to the public.
Concordia - what? about 5 designs of their own (the rest of their building work were for designs by Luders or Reimers) - and they weren't selling the plans either - you had to buy a boat.

Even I have a bigger and more varied portfolio than these examples. It is simply a problem of marketplace size again. If I had 15 times the sales for the same amount of work I would have an office and an employee, a house, a boatshed by the water.

I wouldn't be living my life flitting from state to state and hanging around with jazz musicians, architects and buddhists.

Or maybe I still would - but they would have to come to the BACK door - right!?

And so it goes aahhh maybe theres naught for it but for me to build me redesigned luggar and hope all the numbers are crunched right or even build a Trixen (at 50ft a bloody lifetime project!! :eek: ) and Aussie designers be damned!! gawd sometimes I bloody amaze myself at my ability to say things that phiss me or other people off :eek: ... ah well its a talent I guess

Nah - won't me off - I understand you too well now - and want to see you get to where you gotta go.

Yep - my suggestions would be.

Have a really good look round for a plan or a rebuild that you can dig. As I said earlier - plans don't need to be complete - if successful boats have been built in the past that is all you need on that side.

Body plan (or offsets) is essential. As is a decent profile and sailplan. That's all you really need.

Loft it out.

You can use Herreshoff's or Nevin's Rules or even that goddamawful USL code to work out the size of each bit.

And you are on your way.

Two bits of advice.

1/ The size of boat which people cruising the world have been most happy with is in the 32 to 37ft range (LOA). If you want long, elegant overhangs, they don't add too much to the expense - so I will let you go over a bit. Anyway - overhangs are a boatowner's gift to the rest of the world. You go up to 50 ft and the cost will be the cube of (50/36) = 2.6 times the smaller boat - so will maintenance - so will mooring fees - so will sails - so will fuel consumption.

2/ If you can't find something perfect within 6 months do something that won't suck up years of your life - a short building commitment - but will get you out there on a regular basis.

Doc Mik out.

Ok Doggie - you have been very good waiting like that - now ........

Geddim - GO DOGGIE GO.

One thing I would like to add to my end suggestion.

If you do go with a "fill in" project - keep it as small and simple as will match what you want to do.

As Bolger said - there are two sorts of good boats. Those you live aboard and those you stick on the car roof to take home.

Wise words for everyone.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

and those you stick on the car roof to take home.

Dammit, I'm going to have to buy a cadillac - about the only thing long enough

Richard

btw, don't fooled into thinking that Mik types all these posts himself - you should see his secretary

Man that was a truely brilliant lengthy dissertation!! :eek:

But see now Doc Mik... we have achieved what I at least set out to achieve!! Not initially but consequently... That is to make information available from a reliable source! See sometimes fellas and sheilas spend years askin themselves these same questions and never gain a good solid answer... in that single major discourse of yours you have answered many a searchers questions! Bloody brilliant

I often get these discussions going to simply get the info out there so others can gain insight and knowledge of why. Before this Ive not had one response that covers it so well

Secretary or his own self Richard it was a great dissertation! cudos to whoever deserves them

I have contacted Mari and had an inital response and am presently waiting for his considered and researched answers so thank you for that tip mate... if Im lucky and if his trip West coincides with my week off from the mine I intend to hopefully meet up with him.

Now!! Im still waitin for that ruddy project boat!!

Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

Now!! Im still waitin for that ruddy project boat!!

Remember my Samar Shane? That big pile of firewood that everyone was so rude about? She's here if you want her. On a good trailer. She's not what you're looking for but she'd make a great day cruiser for you and the hoons, and a very good fishing boat. My problem is that I can't see me getting anywhere near her in the next year or two and you know what it's like with old boats sitting out in the rain. If someone wants to do her up properly, I'd rather they had her than have her rot on my front lawn until I'm able to attend to her.

www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=21438

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...5&d=1126664727

Richard

Originally Posted by Daddles

Dammit, I'm going to have to buy a cadillac - about the only thing long enough

Richard

"Brevity is the soul of wit".

But it is usually the end of conversation. (and if you remember which character spoke that quote )

A truly lengthy monologue works almost as well.

well if i was uder the weather i may of understood all that dialouge a little better,but hey i will admit i am totally confused...why not measure a boat,that takes your fancy and convert and think and convert and try,or am i being naive?

Well me ol pimple mate... I dont know about that... see first Ive done that and all it does is...

a) confuse the buggary out of you
b) make you question your sanity
c) make others seriously question your version of reality
d) make you aware of your limitations regarding math and equasions and other such cuss words
e) you find you send the numbers for checking to all corners of the world cause...

1) If youve got it wrong and build it...
i) youve wasted a shyteload of time
ii) youve wasted a shyteload of timber
iii) youve wasted a shyteload of money

2) If youve got it wrong and built it and start sailing
i) yours and everyone who sails on her's safety is at risk
ii) you could be cause for a major search and rescue
iii) It could be a major source of embarressment to you and yours if it slips to the bottom of the harbor at the launch or turns turtle before youve even tossed the champers at its bow!

Of course one could do the numbers and draw her out all sweet as a nut and then loft her down till shes sweet and fine then gather the timbers together and build her... and go sailing on a boat they designed and built themselves and trust the gods that they got it right... some have actually done so

When I redrew a luggar down to a size I believed was more realistic to single hand with maybe the occasional crew (26ft) and checked the numbers of the offsets they appeared dead on the money and for the most part were with only a few diagonals slightly out which were quickly and easily found by doing a model... where I had probs was with the keel what weight would be required down there in a lead keel would it be better to use lead ingots in the bilge concrete or even iron and how much was required to keep her boyant and in the mast up condition required for sailing unlike submarining which requires as you know that the mast be in the upside down position...

personally I have a penchant to be upright and with the sun and wind in my face rather than head down in millions of gallons of salty brine!!... and then the question of the masts how big a main mast? what size the sails? and so the questions grew as the further along I went

A few things I quickly learnt from that redraw were...
1) I will never be a NA or boat designer!
2) I now have a great respect for the work of these people
3) ITS NOT BLOODY EASY!!!
4) the amount of work that goes into a design is huge

It made it easier to understand the cost of plans from a designer... although the disparage in actual pricing still confuses me... I can now appreciate why the costs are as they are.

And all weve touched on here is the plans!!! then you have to move on to other things what timbers to use weight ratios laden vs unladen weights trailerability issues sails etc etc etc... its really not as simple as it may initially seem to design a boat... well a small two or four sheet ply isnt brain science I guess but once you move onto larger boats and in particular large timber sailing boats its an increadible amount of work figuring it all out

And mate if your going to head into water deeper than a phart you better make sure the numbers all line up!! cause its when they dont that trouble exacerbates tenfold and so the increased risk to self and family friends increases manifestly... enter the NA or boat designer... they who spend their hours crunching the numbers of every thing that goes into making the boat what it should be.

I guess what has evolved with this thread is the parting of knowledge... the tapping of Miks mind to impart that knowledge to others... its always been a burning question within the minds of people why boat designers plans are so expensive... but to be honest they dont cost that much when you consider the costs you will be shelling out as you begin building

For example a bloke I know has the plans for the 40ft schooner I mentioned above and is halfway through what was meant to be a 5 year build which has just ticked over its 15th year at what was intended to be a $50000US cost that has blown out to well over $100,000US so far... so although seeming expensive initially the 2000 for those plans is miniscule comparitively and the plans are exhaustive running to over 60 sheets... that is for this particular design some are far less detailed and here I had plans for one of the most beautiful 40ft schooners designed back in 1910 that remains sailing today in Boston but the plans ran to exactly 4 sheets!! no real details just the bare info!! some go to increadible lengths with the plans some dont... but the time spent by the NA or designer to get them even to the 4 page stage is immense.... some even go so far as to make a book that goes with the plans to help you put it all together without stress or struggle its all laid out for you... others dont or didnt consider that since many are designed for professional builders who would as a first thing create a half model and straighten any discrepancies at that point and take the measurements for the lofting from the half model... actually if your going to build a boat its my belief that you SHOULD take the time and effort to create an acurate half model this will give you an exact scale rendition of the boat from which to see her in 3d before building begins... you can then on completion set the halfmodel to the bulkhead over the galley and proudly know that from that first build came what you sail or motor in... grand feeling making a half model

So see where I was heading by getting Mik to have a bit of a rant mate? firstly the fact that a NA has drawn the plans doesnt nessissarily mean there wont be some numbers out in the drawings all too often there are one or two that are an 1/8 or so out but they are found immeadiately upon lofting... it means the hard work of the drawings and numbers is done... you have to learn to read them draw them and then make the timber conform to them to build your boat... the cost of $2000+/- is really a very sound investment in your heading toward your ultimate goal

Trouble can be deciding which design from the horrendous plethoria of designs out there!!! the internet is a boat design searchers nightmare!

Okay Richard ol mate how we gonna get that baby over here?? You comin for a visit? Could be a new book in it for you!! "How I conquored my fear of the Nallabor nymph" or some such

Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

Okay Richard ol mate how we gonna get that baby over here?? You comin for a visit? Could be a new book in it for you!! "How I conquored my fear of the Nallabor nymph" or some such

Said baby is sitting on a perfectly useable trailer. She's here if you want her. I can even set the chain saw to her and send her over as bales of sawdust
Seriously mate, the trailer is a goodun but I reckon you'd have to come have a look at her to see how you'd want to handle it. The offers there mate, but I can understand the distance is a real problem

Richard

so who invented the boat at any rate...chinee,viking...or big christopher himself as a way to wipe out millions and rob the world of gold,

whoever it was did their own thing............and thank the lord invented travel upon the seas.......so therefore did any of those big name ship inventors say thank you.....no they did not it is akin to mooring/anchoring fees in my book and my book tells me to tell them to bash it where there sun dont shine boat pyscho analysis will be next and all i can say is a pox on the lot of you money grabbing bu ggers

ooooooohh geez me ol pimple!! talk about set the fox among the pligions!! :eek:

Mate... as I said many have designed and build perfectly sound boats... and no doubt enjoyed the hell out of them for many years in safety

And many are those that in years well gone by that decided to build a boat and simply set about doing so with what was at hand over the years generations continued what became a boatbuilding tradition and many of those travelled far and wide

I do think we often anulise and posture way too much... we worry and niggle far beyond the necessary... and procrastination has definantly been the death of many a searchers quest... just as confusion has stalled many a builders dream

Many designers even today never became qualified Bolger probably bein the most of note I believe Bueller another Al Mason yet another James Wharram another of the top of my noggin... yet I know they have all gained a massive world renown for safe beautiful designs (forgetting the brick and micro brick of Bolgers) so its achievable... ANYTHING is achievable... if one decides to hell with it and just gets stuck in

My thoughts on what I want are like so...
I want a resonably large sail boat 26 - 40ft (not too hard to resolve)
it has to be beautiful to my eye (this is a problem given my eclectic tastes)
it has to have the ability to sail far and wide
it has to have stability to take the hardest tides winds and waves
it has to be sturdy enough to make it to wherever I point her
It has to be sailable by one... with an occasional crew of 2

Now I KNOW I can draw what I want... I also KNOW that others have drawn what I like... I also KNOW that they have been built... so I KNOW it can be done

What I dont know... given Ive drawn what I like within certain reason... I know I can do that much what I dont know within that is whether or not the numbers are right with regard weight keel etc as I am totally bereft of any mathamatical sence... and its that that worries me... on paper she looks fine but do the sums and Ive no bloody idea!... so really I have a choice I can just say stuff it and go to with a vengence... or I can send a cheque for a thou or so dollars over seas or east to a NA to check the numbers... or I can buy a set of plans of what has already been done (ala Fife Peterson or Wharram... I did say eclectic tastes!!) and simply start... or I can find a project boat of similar proportions and set to... or I can simply buy one of the Fife's that are presently in the boatpoint site for sale... or?

Yes the Swedes build boats without plans for centuries and travelled far and wide in them Yes the Vikings built boats without plans for centuries and sailed conquored and travelled far and wide in them Yes the Chinese Arabs and Polynesians also did the same... but am I up to their abilities? and do I trust my own abilities that far? so the great unknown makes itself known!

As Ive said before procrastination is the great nemisis of the searcher... do I dont I? mmm this one or that one?... and hence my frustration!! and so hence the quest for a project boat... see my thoughts are like so... If I cant make my bloody mind up which design to build from scratch then rather than waste time continuing a search I would rather be restoring an old girl which would give me imeptise to build my own give me handson experience with a larger boat than Ive done before and so prepare the waters for the day I finally say "Stuff this THIS is the one!" and so build the dream I have had for so many years... commit the time money and effort after gaining the experience and hands on knowledge that can only come through doing... see where Im going me ol pimple?

This wasnt meant to phiss anyone off rather its evolved into a passage of knowledge and ideas... which is a good thing me thinks!... now whens that huon pine boat arriving again I seemed to have missed the manifest somewhere!

Richard... mate can you toss a cover over her and keep her safe from the weather for awhile? Im planning a trip over in a few months time hopefully before Christmas... also is it possible to zap me a reminder pic or two? not that that over concerns me overly mate as if shes doable and Im able I'll snap her up!... hopefully whack her on deck of a larger one and chuck em both on a train carriage back here eh!!

Nix that request for pics Richard... duhhh head here just clicked your links

Soooo whatcha done to her? eh? yer cleaned all that gunkamola outta there? yer taken all that paint off her? yer sorted anything out? come on mate youve had her awhile now so whatcha done to her? enquiring minds need to know!! well this one at least

gee you fellows make me giggle at times,are you going to do anything in your life or just waffle on,gerr isbn0-87742-289-3 read and understand that book and you will be laughihg in my humble opinion...

I haven't touched her Shane, working on the principal that she'll probably survive better left to her own devices rather than having half attempted work all over the place. I was going to get into her after I finished Sixpence but that's going to be a while and while I'm renting, the work'd be done on the front lawn which isn't the best, and I don't have any money which isn't a novel impediment but does tend to limit one's efforts.

Richard