Thread: WHATHA??? shock hits!! man falls of perch

I was in Dalesford (central Victoria and damn cold) a few weeks ago and looked at a shop that sold furniture and they were selling tables with 6 chairs for $11,000 - $13,000. I couldn't believe these prices. I would have figured around $5k would have been more like it. There is another guy who has a workshop and showroom in Dalesford who just sells the tables without chairs for around $6k.

The upshot is that people are willing to spend alot on furniture. Go to a Harvey Norman and have a look at some of their better stuff and check out the prices. Nicholas Dattner, Dare Gallery etc. charge a fortune for furniture that a lot of us here have the skills to make. The problem for us is we don't have a retail space to sell them.

Originally Posted by Grunt

Go to a Harvey Norman and have a look at some of their better stuff

That, Grunt, is what is known as an oxymoron.

Point taken

Grunt thats what Im getting at... some of these peices are BORING! with a capital everything! :mad:

If I were going to pay an arm and a leg for a table it sure as better have some standout textures and hues to it! It better make me IMPRESSED! but these dont impress whatever... boring... nothing special not even an insert or edging to break the color just red Jarrah... boring

So heck I mean theres many fellas here who are FAR and AWAY better than me at this game and I mean FAR FAR FAR AWAY better and have a feel for textures and color hues and use of the timbers natural features than me... so why arent they calling themselves artists and combining to open a gallery somewhere and selling something that yells screams and demands people notice TASTE STYLE BEAUTY AND FORM? instead of boring...

Im thinking here... In some of those high flyin offices around the country theyre always out to impress their customers and competition and even their peers with their expensive furnishings and such... how impressed would they be with just a bloody boring red Jarrah coffee table in the waiting foyer? !... give them some texture some feature something DIFFERENT! that yells at them all the above? why just a boring timber such as Jarrah? carry that through to the board room with a high figured peice with a centre feature that YELLS at them how impressive this company is how utterly completely stylish and RICH they are... that even their basic coffee tables scream it... impress the socks completely off them and their jocks while your at it! why not?

A coop shouldnt be overty difficult to set up from within this board... one in each state is a possiblity advertise market and push the talent artistry and beauty out there from within the members? Why not?... if these fellas can ask such increadible prices for boreing peices and get it! what if its way more stunnning than they can even imagine? what then?

I think these fellas have gotten basically lazy... they found their niche market of Jarrah peices and thats it thats all theyre pumpin out theyre stuck in a rut of this sells we sell this this is easy to make and sell we make and sell this... no imagination theyve settled for easy and mediocre... boring.

Swan River furniture is another thats gotten this way I think not to take issue with Swan River Im not some peices are real sweet... but!!... Jarrah Marri and... Pine?? yech retch and puke!... yet theyre asking the same sorta prices at least Marri has some figure some beauty some stand out quality within it... but I think theyre in a rut and heck EVERYONE wants Jarrah dont they? they wanted it 10 years ago they wanted it 20 years ago so of course they want it now too... but do they?... If they were offered a quality choice would they want Jarrah over something else? Sheoak say? Maple say? Koa say? {you name an interesting featured timber} but see these fellas arent game to try anything else... so theyre stuck with a mantra that goes... Jarrah sells we make Jarrah furniture Jarrah sells we know Jarrah sells so we make Jarrah anything else is too big a risk we make Jarrah we know Jarrah sells so we dont try anything else cause... you know the mantra And the fact is that because of their mantra and their bein stuck they are actually opening a door for us fellas!! they have lost their imagination...

We have not! We still have ours!... Ive seen some things here by fellas here that have rocked my socks off... REALLY seriously impressive stuff... Im no expert but I do look from the eyes of someone who loves timber who enjoys seeing something stand out and impress people weather in an office situation or in high end real estate... but... whats out there? boredom... so why not a co op made up from the fellas and sheilas here?

You just have a good think about it... its possible... its doable... and its within the reach of everyone here... just needs organizing is all... and Ive no doubt that there are those here with the skills knowledge and ability to do that as well!

Tell me which peice you would buy if you were living in or furnishing a high end peice of real estate private or business and corporate... boring Jarrah or highly figured and textured that screams taste beauty and richness? a peice that sits red and boring saying nothing or a peice full of color texures hues and movements that SCREAM for attention and YELLS for touch and when they do they cant believe the depth of the timber the softness of its feel the warmth of its colors the hidden blues the subtle yellow the soft pink the dark browns and black swirling and twisting flowing grains that really stun them... boring red of Jarrah?... my view Jarrah should be an additional feature to the main peice just a touch of Jarrah is enough else it becomes overpowering in its blandness

No Im not sayin mine is all that and Im not promoting mine as better than those... but there are fellas here who do have things theyve created that do... Im just totally astounded that these fellas can sell these boring bland peices of straight forward timber with nothing special in texture figure or even inserts for those prices! AND get away with it!

On the other hand, some people are cheap and will never understand why we must charge a fraction of what the gallerys do.

After I showed my boss the bookshelf/curio cabinet unit I had built, He asked how much i would charge for such a piece... he almost had a coronary when I told him $3,500 for a buddy deal. Likewise, I've been working on a coffee table for two months now and perhaps am 2/3 done. He can't understand why I'd need to charge at least $800 to be worth selling one... He says, "It's just a coffee table!"

This is also a man who must have his wife bait his own fishing hook... He's why particle board was invented.

Wild Dingo,
That's a beautiful piece of work- worth more than $500. You don't mention the top's thickness, but it looks like about 50mm .
Assuming that you are doing it for a hobby, but still prepared to sell pieces, or do pieces for mates, like I do, my rule of thumb is to ask for 40 - 50% of the price for comparable pieces which preludes comparison with Harvey Norman type stores.
If you go to the Woodwork pics ( about April 2003), there is a picture of a refectory table that I did. I get $1400 for these. This compares with $2500 - $3000 at shops down in Richmond ( Vic) that sell really well made pieces - often from re-cycled timber which I invariably use
mick4412

Just thought I would throw in my 10 cents worth.
Several posters take exception to the prices charged for gallery pieces and I agree with you in so far as many of these pieces are overpriced given their uninspired design and aforementioned conservative timber choice but before you scoff at the idea of paying $11000 dollars for a table and chairs do same simple maths.
One could easily spend 2 to 3 thousand for materials if you are using a quality timber. The table will probably take 30 to 50 hours, chairs can take a lot of time if they are a one of and jigs are not worth setting up for only one small batch of chairs. What is a fair hourly rate to charge ? Well a carpenter with a nailgun and el-cheapo hardpoint saw will get about $48 a sparky $55 a plumber mate of mine going leak detection work charger $250 per hour. I work hard and never say close enough is good enough and have far more skills than your average carpenter so think $50 - $70 is fair thing to aim for not that I get that sort of money too often.
Then you have the costs of running a business and maintaining a workshop.
I think if you do the maths you will find the $11000 is not so overpriced !!!

People not woodworking for a living but still selling pieces should price them as if they were doing it professionally (if the quality is there) otherwise they are just taking work from those people who do it in order to feed their families. I think you will find this is one of the main reasons that many professional woodworkers are not too warm toward those who do this for a hobby.

Hey shane,

regardless of the price, could you post some more pictures of the figure in the top of the table? thanks.
-ryan

The "market" takes no notice of rhetoric. Rule #1 of the commercial world is: Don't try and tell the "dumb" buying public what they should or shouldn't like (Harvey Norman do a lot of business!). If the solid-wood pieces are overpriced (and the galleries are actually selling them) then someone is getting rich. Do you notice many galleries or manufacturers looking like they are getting rich? If NO, then they are probably not overpriced in the long term. If YES, then this represents a great opportunity for you to make better pieces, sell them cheaper, and still make money.

Most skilled craftspersons sell their stuff too cheaply. See my more comprehensive post in a thread of a few weeks ago....
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=10218

Qw

Originally Posted by Different

I think if you do the maths you will find the $11000 is not so overpriced !!!

QldWoodie also made valid points here and in the previous thread, but beyond Different's comments above, there is also the cost of SELLING the things in the first place.

As a consumer, I expect a level of service from my retailer including after sales service if that is required. So don't forget to add the cost of actually packing, holding, keeping a showroom, paying staff whether they are selling or not.....GST(!) and so on.

What is the ACTUAL cost of PRODUCTION?

Basic hourly rates are often also wildly undercharged. Let's say as a master craftsman I decide that $50,000 per annum (before tax) is a reasonable income.

9% superannuation takes this to $54,500.
10% GST which has to be charged on labour takes the total to $59,950

I want to work a 37 hour week like everyone else, take public holidays off, and have four weeks annual leave as well as allow ten days for sick leave in a year....just as though I was an employee. So that leaves 220 working days to actually earn my income.

Now I work really efficiently, but still have to do the accounts, pick up hardware and supplies myself and clean up, as well as maintaining my web site and talking to the bank. All of that takes about a third of my time realistically, which means I actually only have 145 days (1073 hours) a year to actually work productively. (Don't forget I actually work really hard the whole time, never make a mistake, and never go out for a ciggy or wee.)

I work from my shed at home, pay no rent but I have $20,000 of tools and equipment, which realistically I renew/repair every ten years so allow 8% for maintenance ($1600.00) other consumables, electricity,
rags, sandpaper, drill bits etc say $60 per week ($3000) I have a small ute and hardly ever use it, so let's say it costs another $100 a week all up ($5200 per year). And I only spend $50 per month on my phone and internet connection (Yeah right!)

Now the total I have to earn is: $70,250 in 1073 hours which means I have to charge $65.00 per hour for my productive time.

OK, so I scrounge all my timber, get given all my paint, and can complete a coffee table in one day or 7.4 hours. I only need to charge $480 to cover my costs.... IF I don't have to pay any advertising or commission or credit card fees on the sale!

Do the same numbers with REAL overheads, paying staff and rent, and then do the same for a gallery and see if you could make $50k per annum selling tables for $1,200... I couldn't.

Can't work out how you'd spend the money if you were earning 50 grand a year? Fair enough, do the sums again based on making $25,000 and you'll be able to drop your hourly rate down to just a little more than $40.00 an hour.

Which is why for me, woodwork is a HOBBY!!


A hobby which on the basis of those figures probably is really costing me $100 a week even if I am doing nothing!!
:eek: :eek: :eek:

Cheers,

P

Real costs vs apparent cost is a real thing in the game i am in. My salary is x with on costs it is about 1.1x. The trouble is this is for someone who is doing nothing without a building to work in. Add in the costs of a building, depreciation, electricity, and you come to about 2x and I am still doing nothing with no operating budget. One of the more entertaining expenses on my side is library, something like 7,000 a year. The library actually costs several million a year to keep running and I can not really do my job without it.

When you start to add up these sorts of things you get an "apparently" inflated figure, but is really closer to the real costs of the article. For some poor sod in the third world with no real prospects and a foreign company wanting to take advantage of "cost savings" then it is possible to reduce sale price and cover costs.

In the commercial world every time you touch something it has to make money for you. Selling something for $2 when it takes you 15min to make and another 15min to sell does not make money.

You may make enough to cover some of your real expenses eg wood, direct tool costs, but in the long term you would find yourself saying things like "I am not going to do it because I do not get enough out of it to make it worthwhile".

Thanks for the tremendous replies fellas! I guess like most people I see things in one vision without looking at the periphial... when put like that I sure can understand the prices.

And will adjust mine upward accordingly!

Bitingmidge,

I think you are absolutely correct in showing that it is virtually impossible to make a decent living from making fine furniture because there are still very few people in Australia who can both appreciate quality workmanship and who can afford to pay realistic prices for it. This is why I do not attempt to make rocking chairs for sale.

The Maleny gallery says that it cannot sell rockers for more than $3000. This is only about half of what average rockers sell for in the US. Rockers by the top makers in the US can sell for as much as US$24,000. It takes me well over 100 hours to make one, and the materials and upholstery cost about $500. Maybe, if I was super-efficient, I could make one in 50 hours. If I were to cost my labout at $65, 50 hours labour plus materials would amount to $3750, without any allowance for overheads. In addition, a gallery charges about 35% of the retail price as commission. Hence, after selling a few items through the gallery, I soon realised that I was working for peanuts, and gave up making items for sale.

It is probably easier to make money from making simpler items like tables, but even so, there are not too many people who are willing to pay $1300 for the relatively plain coffee table like the one that was the subject of this thread.

Rocker

I don't want to take issue with anything said above, especially Rocker's thoughts, but I just wanted to throw another spanner in the works. Most of us are only doing woodwork because we enjoy it. I assume that if the list from swmbo ever actually got to an end we'd still want to make stuff. At that point the only costs that really need recovered (assuming we're not giving up the day jobs) are the costs of the materials/tools/power and man-hours can be ignored. Sure, it'd be great to sell a coffee table for $10000 but I could live with much less (and the pride!) if it meant I'd sold something. I guess that makes me a pain in the butt for the craftsmen out there trying to make a living from furniture making but that would be true even if I only gave things away. Not that I'm good enough to trouble the guys selling out of the galleries

Cheers,
John