Thread: Attitudes to the road toll

Originally Posted by Twisted Tenon

I see your point. Speeding doesn’t necessarily make you an incompetent driver, but it does make you a law breaker. Not sure I get the point re accusations. I have several speeding fines over many years of driving and was caught dead to rights each time.

As I said a few dozen post back:

Originally Posted by doug3030

When I am out on the highways I have my GPS navigation up for an accurate speed reading since you cannot trust the car's speedo. I drive with cruise control on and the speed set to right on or just under the speed limit by the GPS. Yet twice in the last 12 months I have been caught by speed cameras when I know that I have not been over the limit - let alone the 3 km/h leeway you are allowed before being booked. These were both speed cameras which I was well aware of the location of. My old (8+ years) GPS did not have dashcam and trip recording, which is why I recently upgraded as I discussed in this thread dash cam. Next time I get booked I will have the proof I need. Speed cameras are not as infallible as most people think and most people pay up because they cannot prove otherwise. So yes I attempt to avoid the fines but I have been caught doing nothing wrong. The next ticket I get will be contested and the dash cam will have paid for itself.

Did you know that in Victoria at least, speed cameras are not even operated by the police, or even the Government? The responsibility is contracted out to a private company whose income is derived from commissions from the speeding fines. That kind of blows any arguments that speed camera fines are not based on revenue raising. That company has a business model based entirely on raising revenue that way.

Originally Posted by doug3030

Did you know that in Victoria at least, speed cameras are not even operated by the police, or even the Government? The responsibility is contracted out to a private company whose income is derived from commissions from the speeding fines. That kind of blows any arguments that speed camera fines are not based on revenue raising. That company has a business model based entirely on raising revenue that way.

Plus an incentive to get it wrong... just sometimes....

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Plus an incentive to get it wrong... just sometimes....

and according to The Age, they also have a nasty habit of attempting to cover up problems, which when discovered can result in losses of commissions/revenue. So by inference, when the problem is not discovered, innocent motorists get to fork over their hard-earned cash.

State government reserves decision on troubled road camera operator Redflex

Have a look at the part about their dealings over in Chicago a few years back as well. They do not seem to have a good track record.

Originally Posted by doug3030

No he didn't. He said:

Originally Posted by ian

and remember in NSW registration and licence cancellation are used as punishments for offences unrelated to person's competence as a vehicle operator.

Like speeding fines - which can have as much to do with your competence as a vehicle operator as fare evasion, shoplifting etc. You can get a speeding fine when driving safely and competently. All you have to do is cross an arbitrary boundary. In fact you don't even have to do that. You just have to be accused of doing it and not be able to prove your innocence.

When I used "competence" I was actually thinking of parking fines -- if you want to contest a parking fine, State Debt Recovery (in NSW) has immutable deadlines, miss a deadline by even one day and your only recourse is the Local court. Not an option that is affordable for many people.

An adjacent municipality installed this speed monitoring road sign this year. Not visible in the picture is a high-intensity flashing white light that serves to attract attention. I haven't seen any reports of its general effectiveness but it has caused me to be more careful. It does not serve as a traffic camera, just a warning.

speed sign.JPG

I've been reading this:

Emily M. Zitek, Alexander H. Jordan. Psychological Entitlement Predicts Failure to Follow Instructions. Social Psychological and Personality Science, 2017; 194855061772988 DOI: 10.1177/1948550617729885

The authors write that people who have a greater sense of entitlement also have a tendency to disregard rules and that this disregard arises from a sense that the rules are unfair. The paper is paywalled but if anyone would like to read it send me a PM.

I may be reading things wrong, but I get the impression that, on one hand people want offenders cars crushed, and on the other hand speeding fines are arbitrary and subject to manipulation by the company charged with monitoring speed cameras.
Sweeping statements like fines are only revenue raising tools are ridiculous. What would you have as a deterrent if not fines?
Generally, I believe that the speed limits set for both town and country traveling are pretty spot on, with a few exceptions. I also believe that the 3k allowance is too tight and should be 5K, either that or make it unlawful to place speed cameras at the bottom of hills.

This earlier paper from the same researcher

J Pers Soc Psychol. 2010 Feb;98(2):245-55. doi: 10.1037/a0017168.

Victim entitlement to behave selfishly.


Zitek EM¹, Jordan AH, Monin B, Leach FR.

suggests that subjective feelings of having been treated unfairly, both in the past and present, contribute to selfish or entitled behavior. If you Google the title you'll find links to access the full paper.

In the context of driving and this thread it raises the possibility that harsh punishments for driving infractions may elicit further bad behavior from individuals who have generalized feelings of having been treated unfairly into, if you will, a persecution complex.

Originally Posted by Grumpy John

I may be reading things wrong, but I get the impression that, on one hand people want offenders cars crushed, and on the other hand speeding fines are arbitrary and subject to manipulation by the company charged with monitoring speed cameras.
Sweeping statements like fines are only revenue raising tools are ridiculous. What would you have as a deterrent if not fines?

How about asshole points?

A stern talking too?

Clearly that works for criminals with 60 convictions who end up killing 3 others while driving high on methadone. Yes, a formal letter of reprimand should do it.

[QUOTE=doug3030;2062628]As I said a few dozen post back:


Originally Posted by doug3030
When I am out on the highways I have my GPS navigation up for an accurate speed reading since you cannot trust the car's speedo. I drive with cruise control on and the speed set to right on or just under the speed limit by the GPS. Yet twice in the last 12 months I have been caught by speed cameras when I know that I have not been over the limit - let alone the 3 km/h leeway you are allowed before being booked. These were both speed cameras which I was well aware of the location of. My old (8+ years) GPS did not have dashcam and trip recording, which is why I recently upgraded as I discussed in this thread dash cam. Next time I get booked I will have the proof I need. Speed cameras are not as infallible as most people think and most people pay up because they cannot prove otherwise. So yes I attempt to avoid the fines but I have been caught doing nothing wrong. The next ticket I get will be contested and the dash cam will have paid for itself.



Wow. I'm pretty sure that here in NSW the leeway is 10 percent plus one. I set my cruise control onto 118 kph when on the expressways and have never been booked by the police. Fixed radar is a different matter. I have a grey nomad friend who lives in QLD who will not drive in Victoria because of their radar traps.

TT

Originally Posted by rob streeper

An adjacent municipality installed this speed monitoring road sign this year. Not visible in the picture is a high-intensity flashing white light that serves to attract attention. I haven't seen any reports of its general effectiveness but it has caused me to be more careful. It does not serve as a traffic camera, just a warning.

I've seen from time to time on the Newcastle Expressway a police car pulled over on the middle median strip just sitting there with its warning lights on. Every one slows done for a while. I've wondered if it was a bored copper or part of a strategy.

TT

Originally Posted by Grumpy John

I may be reading things wrong, but I get the impression that, on one hand people want offenders cars crushed, and on the other hand speeding fines are arbitrary and subject to manipulation by the company charged with monitoring speed cameras.
Sweeping statements like fines are only revenue raising tools are ridiculous. What would you have as a deterrent if not fines?
Generally, I believe that the speed limits set for both town and country traveling are pretty spot on, with a few exceptions. I also believe that the 3k allowance is too tight and should be 5K, either that or make it unlawful to place speed cameras at the bottom of hills.

Well lets put things in perspective. The two idiots in v8's I saw recently on the M80 who were going a good 50 - 80 km/h over the 100km/h speed limit, weaving in and out of the traffic and braking sharply at a known speed camera site would deserve anything the law could throw at them - if they were caught. I think I speak for every other driver on the motorway that day that they would have loved a front seat to watch their cars get crushed, just to see the look on their faces. They had no legitimate excuse for speeding or they would not have slowed down at the speed camera site. They are the people who we really need to get off the roads - yet they are probably more skilled in operating a motor vehicle than 99% of the population. They have the skills but not the common sense. That type of behavior belongs on a racetrack where the cars have the proper safety gear and all the drivers are highly skilled and expecting everyone else to be driving like that.

However, I do not think there was anything to be gained by crushing their cars. Why reduce probably $100,000 into a couple of hundred dollars worth of scrap metal. Confiscate them and have a big auction a few times a year.

So yes, I am all in favor of harsh treatment when the punishment fits the crime, but wielding a big stick at everyone just incites resentment, as others have pointed out.

Good men need no laws, and bad men are not made better by them.
(quote often attributed to Plato)

Now look at the normal daily speed enforcement in Victoria - speed and red light cameras operated by a private company on a government contract and earning commission.

To quote from the link I posted earlier:

Ms Neville said it was her understanding Redflex was aware of the virus on June 15, but rather than notifying relevant authorities, it rebooted and repaired the system and failed to report the outbreak.She said the department became aware the virus had infected 55 cameras between June 16 and June19, but also failed to report it to her until June 22.
Redflex - which has declined to comment - did not tell the government about the additional 42 cameras infected until June 23.
A total of 97 cameras have now been identified as having the virus, mistakenly put into the cameras by a contractor during a routine maintenance program, Ms Neville said.
The outbreak of the virus has caused chaos in Victoria's speed camera network with all fines for the state's 280 fixed red-light and speed cameras on hold until a full investigation is conducted by Road Safety Camera Commissioner John Voyage.

So this company was aware of an issue that affected speed camera operation for several days and tried to conceal the situation presumably because it would have affected their commission if fines were withdrawn. How do we know how often this has happened and they have successfully kept it quiet? We will never know; but any of us, our friends and relatives could have easily been wrongly fined as a result.

This same company was also operating a "red light camera business" in Chicago. (to quote from the Chicago article "The Emanuel administration tells Redflex it will not be allowed to keep its red light camera business with the city.) Have a look at the link here to see details of the corruption and bribes that took place to get the system set up how they wanted it so that they would be profitable. http://graphics.chicagotribune.com/n...ight-timeline/

And to quote form this article:

A Tribune analysis of more than 4 million tickets issued since 2007 and a deeper probe of individual cases reveal clear evidence that a series of sudden, unexplainable spikes in Chicago's network of 380 cameras were caused by faulty equipment, human tinkering or both. Chicago transportation officials say they had no knowledge of the wild swings in ticketing until they were told by the Tribune — even though City Hall legally required the camera vendor to watch for the slightest anomaly in ticketing patterns every day. Many of the spikes lasted weeks.

"Unexplainable spikes" n the network? Does this imply that there is a predictable pattern that occurs at a given camera when it is functioning correctly? And if there is a spike, it must be investigated to ensure that the camera is functioning correctly? Doesn't that mean that they expect a consistent number of speeders every day? But they cannot be the same people each time or they would soon lose their licenses due to loss of points. So, can it really be the drivers that are totally to blame?

And why do fines start at 3 km/h over the speed limit? Purely and simply because the company running the cameras would not make a profit if they were only allowed to book people who were doing more than 10 or 20 km/h over the limit. It would not be economically viable to run their business unless they had forced the government to allow them to fine drivers for trivial issues like going 3 km/h over the limit.

The threshholds for penalties for the whole system are based on the business model of a private company working on a commission income, and have nothing to do with road safety. Look at the bribes that this company has been proven to have paid in Chicago. Now look around and ask yourself who in Victoria is shouting loudest about speed cameras saving lives. I do not know if there is a connection or not.

Originally Posted by doug3030

"Unexplainable spikes" n the network? Does this imply that there is a predictable pattern that occurs at a given camera when it is functioning correctly? And if there is a spike, it must be investigated to ensure that the camera is functioning correctly? Doesn't that mean that they expect a consistent number of speeders every day? But they cannot be the same people each time or they would soon lose their licenses due to loss of points. So, can it really be the drivers that are totally to blame?

And why do fines start at 3 km/h over the speed limit? Purely and simply because the company running the cameras would not make a profit if they were only allowed to book people who were doing more than 10 or 20 km/h over the limit. It would not be economically viable to run their business unless they had forced the government to allow them to fine drivers for trivial issues like going 3 km/h over the limit.

The threshholds for penalties for the whole system are based on the business model of a private company working on a commission income, and have nothing to do with road safety. Look at the bribes that this company has been proven to have paid in Chicago. Now look around and ask yourself who in Victoria is shouting loudest about speed cameras saving lives. I do not know if there is a connection or not.

Governments engaging private enterprise to own/operate anything as a means of paying for the infrastructure is inherently flawed. Private enterprise are in it for money, nothing else. If there wasn't a way to make money they wouldn't invest. For anyone, especially politicians, to say that these companies are in the business of road safety is ridiculous. They are exploiting the community and its in their interests for Road Safety to NOT improve, that is their business model. If they improved road safety, they wouldn't be profitable.

Regarding the unexplainable spikes in the network, this actually makes sense as a method of monitoring for issues in the network.

I'm an analyst, and if it was me, i'd be looking at the trend of fines over a certain time frame (days, weeks, peak hour, off peak etc). There'd be an average amount of cars being pinged. You'd have to factor in seasonality (public holidays, Xmas break, major events etc), but by and large it'd all be pretty constant.

If you had an unexplained spike (or dip for that matter) in fines at a certain time that can't be explained by a major event, weather, festive season etc, then that would be a trigger to investigate and make sure the equipment is running as it should.

It may well be that there were a bunch of idiots all driving through that trap at a particular time, and its not to say the equipment is faulty, but its a flag to run a diagnositc.

So in short, yes there would be a somewhat predictable pattern with each camera.