Thread: Attitudes to the road toll

Originally Posted by Grumpy John

I'm not having a go Doug, but I don't know what the authorities are supposed to do with people who do not care about the fines. Clearly these people are so selfish that all the education programs won't help. You're right, other alternatives do cost money, things like television advertisements, police attending schools giving talks on road safety don't come cheap, and people are still speeding and drink driving. Shows like RBT and Highway Patrol show what idiots are out there, many of them are repeat offenders.

John, I did not think for aminute you were having a go at me or anyone else. In fact it seems to me that you and I are pretty much in agreement that the current tactics being used are ineffective at anything but revenue raising.

Originally Posted by Grumpy John

I'm not sure about you Doug, but the thought of copping a fine for speeding keeps me to the limit, and I think the same applies to most people. The trouble is that there is an element out there that just don't care, fines mean nothing to them. These are generally the same people that don't pay their rego, drive unlicensed, and generally don't give a rats about anyone else on the road.

The thought of the fines keeps me within the limits too John. When I am out on the highways I have my GPS navigation up for an accurate speed reading since you cannot trust the car's speedo. I drive with cruise control on and the speed set to right on or just under the speed limit by the GPS. Yet twice in the last 12 months I have been caught by speed cameras when I know that I have not been over the limit - let alone the 3 km/h leeway you are allowed before being booked. These were both speed cameras which I was well aware of the location of. My old (8+ years) GPS did not have dashcam and trip recording, which is why I recently upgraded as I discussed in this thread dash cam. Next time I get booked I will have the proof I need. Speed cameras are not as infallible as most people think and most people pay up because they cannot prove otherwise. So yes I attempt to avoid the fines but I have been caught doing nothing wrong. The next ticket I get will be contested and the dash cam will have paid for itself.

Did you know that the Australian Standard allows for the speedo to read high by up to 10% plus 4 km/h? That means your speedo can show that you are doing 100 km/h when you are actually doing only 86 km/h? Think about that next time you see someone in the right hand lane doing 90 km/h in a 100 zone. It is the standards allowing great descrepancies like that that get the other drivers frustrated and the driver causing the frustration cannot work out why all the others are driving past them and bipping their horns in annoyance.

Cheeers

Doug

Originally Posted by doug3030

Did you know that the Australian Standard allows for the speedo to read high by up to 10% plus 4 km/h? That means your speedo can show that you are doing 100 km/h when you are actually doing only 86 km/h? Think about that next time you see someone in the right hand lane doing 90 km/h in a 100 zone. It is the standards allowing great descrepancies like that that get the other drivers frustrated and the driver causing the frustration cannot work out why all the others are driving past them and bipping their horns in annoyance.

Cheeers

Doug

I had my speedo re-calibrated by an auto electrician after I noticed it was reading significantly higher than my actual speed. It cost a few hundred, but I know it's accurate now.

The speedometer by LAW MUST READ FAST, it is not an option for manufacturers to have a speedo that is dead accurate as they must abide by the law and the tolerance limits built into the legislation. Having it calibrated to read accurately is in fact in breach of the legislation if taken to the enth degree. Manufacturers these days could supply the vehicle with an absolutely accurate speedo but they are simply not allowed to do that. I used a couple of GPS's to work out how far mine was out and the reason I used a few was because GPS has resolution issues depending on the number of satellites it has locked on to at the time. When we first started using GPS for racing we had a lot of problems then when they were solved we found it ALWAYS lagged against the physical sensors we ran it parallel with. GPS is not god and I would not rely on it to present any court case. Some cars these days are logging data on a loop and continually writing to memory and if your car has this facility and you want to argue the point hand the keys to the officer and arrange to have it impounded for data analysis but that would be an extreme reaction to a speeding fine. I would like to see the copper's face if someone did it though, I reckon it would be awesome to see his reaction when he realises all the implications of what he has been presented with.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

The speedometer by LAW MUST READ FAST, it is not an option for manufacturers to have a speedo that is dead accurate as they must abide by the law and the tolerance limits built into the legislation. Having it calibrated to read accurately is in fact in breach of the legislation if taken to the enth degree.

https://www.racq.com.au/cars-and-dri...peedo-accuracy

The only requirement in Australia is that it must not read less than the actual speed (or over by more than 10% +4km), if you can get it dead on it's still legal.

As for GPS, we mere mortals don't get the full resolution available; that's reserved for the military only.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

I used a couple of GPS's to work out how far mine was out and the reason I used a few was because GPS has resolution issues depending on the number of satellites it has locked on to at the time. .

It's not just the number but the positions of the satellites as well - if the satellites being used by a GPS are too close together the accuracy won't be as good as as if they are spread out. GPS is also terrain, and building and vegetation limited and makes a whole lot of assumptions based on previous speeds when a satellite or 2 drop out or are temporarily lost - eg watch the speed shown by a GPS as your car goes into a tunnel. On a flat open straight road with no obstructions I have seen claims of around +/- 1kph, but to win a court case you would probably have to provide a recent calibration speed cert for your GPS and then it I still doubt any magistrate is going to err on the side of a motorist and their $200 GPS.

Whilst speed is a major aspect the other is drink driving.

I hope that the new Victorian laws to deal with this will have a great effect in reducing the road deaths.

In brief early next year anyone, including 1st offenders, caught with a blood alcohol level of 0.05 or more ( P plates zero level) will have a mandatory immediate minimum period of licence cancellation as well as a minimum 6 month interlock device requirement.

This is as well as what the magistrate will impose.

Surely that will be effective.

Peter.

Originally Posted by Sturdee

Surely that will be effective.

I really would like it to be effective but in reality I doubt it will make a shred of difference. Texans are still drink driving at an average cost of $25000 per offence.

Originally Posted by elanjacobs

https://www.racq.com.au/cars-and-dri...peedo-accuracy

The only requirement in Australia is that it must not read less than the actual speed (or over by more than 10% +4km), if you can get it dead on it's still legal.

As for GPS, we mere mortals don't get the full resolution available; that's reserved for the military only.

That is not the way I read but the ADR's must have changed as I recall being in meetings that specified it must read fast and never slow but this is what the actual ADR says

>18.5.1.1.2. indicate the actual vehicle speed, for all speeds above 40 km/h, to an accuracy of ± 10 percent

It in fact does not specify it cannot read slow which surprises me. From Here...https://www.legislation.gov.au/Detai...0-cec060612097

To me that says it must read within 10% and no specification on under or over.

When I fitted larger tyres to my 100 series Landcruiser the speedo went from being spot on at 100 K/Hr (according to 2 of my GPS units) to showing 95 at 100K. I was considering getting one of these fitted, but decided to keep using the GPS. The combination of GPS and cruise control have probably saved me a few fines in the past. Modern cars are so smooth and quiet that it's not hard to find yourself doing over the limit without realiising it.
While I don't disagree with people claiming the fines for speeding are arbitrary and revenue raising, it is not practical to have different speeds for every road condition there is. The speed limit is just that, a limit for that particular road, or stretch of road. you are under no obligation to do that speed, although driving too slow can be just, if not more dangerous, as driving too fast.
One of my pet hates when driving on the freeway, or multi-lane highways is people who cannot stick to one lane (preferably the left) or one speed.

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Originally Posted by doug3030

I really would like it to be effective but in reality I doubt it will make a shred of difference. Texans are still drink driving at an average cost of $25000 per offence.

Maybe, but having an interlock device is much more restrictive than a fine. Firstly the device must be fitted to your car prior to going to Vic Roads to gain a new licence (as the old is cancelled) and then regularly blowing into the device before it can start and then at regular intervals to keep the motor going.

Monthly reports are to be sent to Vic Roads verifying that you have not attempted to drive whilst having alcohol in your system and complying with the conditions imposed on your new licence.

It's a very restrictive way of driving, much worse then paying fines. We will know soon of the effect as the new legislation was passed by parliament this month and the bill received royal assent only last week. If not the government will get even tougher as they are determined to reduce the road deaths.

Peter.

Adr 18-03

5.3. The speed indicated shall not be less than the true speed of the vehicle. At the testspeeds specified in paragraph 5.2.5. Above, there shall be the following relationshipbetween the speed displayed (v1 ) and the true speed (v2).0 ≤ (v1 - v2) ≤ 0.1 v2 + 4 km/h

Originally Posted by Sturdee

Maybe, but having an interlock device is much more restrictive than a fine. Firstly the device must be fitted to your car prior to going to Vic Roads to gain a new licence (as the old is cancelled) and then regularly blowing into the device before it can start and then at regular intervals to keep the motor going.

Monthly reports are to be sent to Vic Roads verifying that you have not attempted to drive whilst having alcohol in your system and complying with the conditions imposed on your new licence.

It's a very restrictive way of driving, much worse then paying fines. We will know soon of the effect as the new legislation was passed by parliament this month and the bill received royal assent only last week. If not the government will get even tougher as they are determined to reduce the road deaths.

Peter.

This only works if the offender applies for a new license. I have a daughter that works in the courts system and many people come back 6 months after the license cancellation to apply for a new license having never had an interlock fitted. These are expensive to have fitted and most offenders from the lower socioeconomic areas don’t have the funds to fit and maintain the devices so continue to drive with no license.

WRT spedo's, surely the diameter of your tyres changes the speed quite a bit?

e.g. My car comes standard with 60 series tyres, but I always fit 40's. (They sure a harder ride!)... the diameter change on an 18" rim would be substantial.

Additionally, if you have your speedo calibrated for new tyres, as they wear you'll be reading quite a bit faster. If a tyre can wear 5 or 6mm before being changed....

Originally Posted by jimfish

This only works if the offender applies for a new license. I have a daughter that works in the courts system and many people come back 6 months after the license cancellation to apply for a new license having never had an interlock fitted. These are expensive to have fitted and most offenders from the lower socioeconomic areas don’t have the funds to fit and maintain the devices so continue to drive with no license.

As with all things, punishments are disproportionately punitive to the poor.

Finland has an interesting approach: A sliding scale proportional to income: https://www.theatlantic.com/business...ticket/387484/