Thread: Building design costs

Thanks. We’ll almost definitely be going the DA/CC route as we will want to stretch the envelope a bit re side setbacks.

My wife and I walked around looking at houses today and decided we really can’t see why we would need to build out of steel. I think I was misinformed. As we have a narrow block (12.5 mtrs) the spans we will need are not that great - other people seem to be doing more bold things with timber. Either way, I’m expeciting we will need engineers input.

Cheers
Arron

Originally Posted by Arron

That is a sorry house. I think it’s a vanity build. It started as a nice design, then someone wanted to make a statement and ruined it.

if you think the front is "sorry", you should see the "industrial chimneys" incorporated in the back. I'm sure that on paper they were supposed to be "sails", but to my eye they look more like chimneys.

This is my favourite, a restrained style - at least it would be if they toned down the garish stairway.

Attachment 438100

Is that BCA compliant?
where are the hand rails? But I'm sure any grandkids would enjoy rolling down the slope.

But seriously, take away the stairs and the lowest level and the canter-levered overhang could make a very nice entrance to the upper level.

Originally Posted by Arron

Thanks. We’ll almost definitely be going the DA/CC route as we will want to stretch the envelope a bit re side setbacks.

My wife and I walked around looking at houses today and decided we really can’t see why we would need to build out of steel. I think I was misinformed. As we have a narrow block (12.5 mtrs) the spans we will need are not that great - other people seem to be doing more bold things with timber. Either way, I’m expeciting we will need engineers input.

Cheers
Arron

Maybe they were referring to steel stud not structural steel?
Timber frame is still the most economical particularly on two storey and a better frame in my opinion
But when there are big spans requiring larger section LVL beams or too big for timber steel is incorporated into a timber frame as it is cheaper than timber and can be archieved with a smaller sectional size
All of this is pretty standard and your engineer will provide details of any steel required and your frame and truss company will sort out the rest

Originally Posted by Beardy

Maybe they were referring to steel stud not structural steel?
Timber frame is still the most economical particularly on two storey and a better frame in my opinion
But when there are big spans requiring larger section LVL beams or too big for timber steel is incorporated into a timber frame as it is cheaper than timber and can be archieved with a smaller sectional size
All of this is pretty standard and your engineer will provide details of any steel required and your frame and truss company will sort out the rest

^^^ What he said. I'm a metalworker by trade and it'd be trivial for me to build a steel framed house. I'd never go steel unless it was absolutely necessary.

Also regarding the getting old comments: a stair lift is an order of magnitude cheaper than an elevator. Elevators cost a fortune to install and require signifigant ongoing inspections. If you can make do with a stairlift it will be much cheaper.

I've been studying colorbond cladding. By far the cheapest way to clad a home and has advantages in certain circumstances (like bushfire). So you can buy custom orb for about $11 sqm. I asked a salesman at lysaght for a rough idea on the cost for 150 sqm of their dominion product (the one I like most). $80 sqm. I needed to sit down. Nothing more complicated than a top hat but as soon as they use the "A" word everything triples....

DOMINIONâ„¢ | Lysaght

I'm thinking of shopping around sheetmetal shops to see if they could fold me some up without damaging the finish...

We went through a lot of this process the last time we built, and I'd just comment on a few of the points raised.

(1) If I had my time again (and we may be building again shortly), I'd go design engineer over architect any day. You are far more likely to end up with something functional that can actually be built. Unlike Europe, where architects have to get some practical trade building experience as part of the qualification process, we found architects here often have no clue about practical matters. Many silly errors made in their designs, then you end up paying them extra to fix their own stuff ups. With a bit of time and thought, the average person can come up with the sort of house design they want, sketch it up, and hand it off to a design engineer to turn into something a builder can work with.

(2) Our architect encouraged us to put our build out to tender, and this was a complete waste of time. When times are good, and builders have plenty of work (as now), you'll be lucky if you even get many responses to a tender. They don't need to tender for work. We sent ours out to 6 local builders, got 2 responses back, and one of those was a ludicrous "trying it on" price about $200,000 above the going rate. So.....only one valid response at a half-sensible price. When we queried one of the builders who didn't respond (one we were keen on using), he actually said that he'd either avoid jobs specified by architects altogether (!), or bump up his fixed price to cover all the inevitable extra work he knew he'd have to put in making an architect design work in the real world.

There are a couple of builders in NSW who sit somewhere between the Homeworld project builders and the full-on custom people. Many of these have their own internal design/drafting capability - Hotondo Homes comes to mind. We'll probably go down this path ourselves, as I have a very good idea of the design for our next (and likely last) house.

What he said ^^^

Yes Hotondo. I had a chat with them. They seemed very flexible, well worth a call.

My experience is that your builder is the one who makes or breaks a project like this in real life. I think it's worth the time and effort to make contact with a well respected builder and go from there. Spend the time finding one or two who already does the sort of thing you are considering...

Builders often have "Design guys" on retainer who will sort out the particulars of what you want and what you want to change. Luckily - they have professional reputations and relationships with these fellows... And since the Builder hired the design fellow - that helps insulate you against spending a bunch of time and money redoing his errors.

The other advantage is that a good builder can help steer you into good ideas and away from things that look good but are traps/pitfalls.... They have done it as a day job for money for long enough that they know what works, what doesn't, and where the traps lie...

Leave the "Architect" work to very highly unique and custom sort of work.... A few people have commented that architecture isn't what it used to be... And I believe that is true... It's mostly a college program with little contact in actual building trades work until you graduate and hit "Real life"... "Building design" seems to go the other way - starting with the trades with the what's and how's and then working up to design from there....

Originally Posted by truckjohn

Leave the "Architect" work to very highly unique and custom sort of work.... A few people have commented that architecture isn't what it used to be... And I believe that is true... It's mostly a college program with little contact in actual building trades work until you graduate and hit "Real life"... "Building design" seems to go the other way - starting with the trades with the what's and how's and then working up to design from there....

an anecdote (about 6 years ago) from an architect parent on my kid's soccer team -- his firm was sending the architectural documentation work off shore "to save money" to the detriment of young architects who used to learn what does and doesn't work by doing that sort of work.

Originally Posted by truckjohn

My experience is that your builder is the one who makes or breaks a project like this in real life. I think it's worth the time and effort to make contact with a well respected builder and go from there. Spend the time finding one or two who already does the sort of thing you are considering...

Builders often have "Design guys" on retainer who will sort out the particulars of what you want and what you want to change. Luckily - they have professional reputations and relationships with these fellows... And since the Builder hired the design fellow - that helps insulate you against spending a bunch of time and money redoing his errors.

The other advantage is that a good builder can help steer you into good ideas and away from things that look good but are traps/pitfalls.... They have done it as a day job for money for long enough that they know what works, what doesn't, and where the traps lie...

Leave the "Architect" work to very highly unique and custom sort of work.... A few people have commented that architecture isn't what it used to be... And I believe that is true... It's mostly a college program with little contact in actual building trades work until you graduate and hit "Real life"... "Building design" seems to go the other way - starting with the trades with the what's and how's and then working up to design from there....

Halelujah truckjohn, you have seen the light! As a builder my pet hate is Architects.
The clients think they are God’s and hang off every word they say and everything the builder says is a lie. They draw and specify things that often don’t work and because the builder performs the work he is legally liable to rectify the issue at his cost. They are legally obliged to be an independent mediator between client and builder on architect administered contracts but as the client pays their fees they naturally sit on that side of the fence and are not going to tell the client they stuffed up.
I just watched from the sideline an expensive home ( over 6 million) being built by a younger less experienced builder and he did a pretty good job overall on what was an extremely difficult project, come to the end of the project when the client moves in and all those niggling little issues raise their head and annoy the client so the builders does not get paid his final payment as he is expected to fix it all, many of which are as a result of poor design and material selection but the architect of course is not going to admit that and pushes the problem in the builders lap to make the client happy which they ultimately cannot.The matter is now heading for the courts and he doesn’t know it yet but I suspect the builder will lose everything and be broke from the process. This is a commonly repeated pattern in the industry

It used to annoy me that I carried all the liability and seven year warranty but did not have a say in the process so I changed my business model to where I engaged all of the consultants including the architect and offered my clients a turnkey design and construct package. That way the building design benefited from getting architectural merit but I could direct/control them on better or more cost effective ways to achieve a similar or more practical result and head down a path that I was happier to warrant.

The problem for clients that are not experienced in building is to know the pitfalls in the process which is difficult if you have had not done it before. This was why I previously suggested getting a design done through a builder to control the overal budget and give you a clearer overall view of the process and expectations early in the process
Somebody has mentioned Hotondo which is the style of builder I was referring to, there will be many more in your area you will just need to find them. Homequest display village Kellyville has a number of these builders but I don’t know if any of them work in your area
Just a note from another thread Hotondo is a franchise so make if that what you will.

Beardy,
I have run into the same so many times with industrial equipment and for-contract "Professional design consultant engineers"...

Often - they do a scope and a budget with their design... And you are lucky if they are in the ballpark to 50%..... 100.0000% of the time they are low... Never once high.... And everything that is impossible or wrong is a Change Order that I have to pay for out of my pocket as Client... I basically have to do all my own estimating to ensure I can get my budget submissions right to finish the projects properly... Literally - I have had these guys completely miss half the electrical or all the piping or leave out foundation work...... And nobody ever remembers controls integration... But the client always has to pay for that stuff...

I much prefer to hire the fabrication guys or mechanical/electrical contractors and make them hire out the engineering.... If it's wrong - they eat it.... But they know that - so they make sure their engineers and designers get it right in the first place... The contractor knows he is on the hook - so he makes sure his tradesmen verify everything is right..... That's why the choice of contractor is absolutely critical.... Probably the #1 thing determining whether the building project will be a success or not..

It's kinda like hiring a Framing guy, a Drywall guy, a Plumber, and a Painter all separately to come redo your bathroom.... Everybody gripes about everbody else - and wants to charge extra to "Undo that blankety blank's mistakes".... Hire one guy to do it all - and he can't complain and try to charge you extra because his idiot drywall guy drywalled over all the electric sockets and windows.... He is the one who hired his guys and he knows it....

Yes I have often wondered how the conversation goes when the Architect/ consultant tells the client that the tenders are all X percent, often millions above the clients original budget brief Many a project doesn’t get off the ground as a result although a lot has been spent on consultants fees.

i thought it was odd you used the phrase “drywall” and then I noted where you are from.
Cheers

Retired Central Coast builder. There are some excellent operators in the area, with a special flare for coastal work. If you want names send me a PM.

Originally Posted by rustynail

Retired Central Coast builder. There are some excellent operators in the area, with a special flare for coastal work. If you want names send me a PM.

Pm sent
Cheers