Thread: The carbon tax is wonderful

I've had my thread hijacked when I went out to cover all the window with pine panels!
Greg

Originally Posted by Greg Ward

I've had my thread hijacked when I went out to cover all the window with pine panels!
Greg

Haha!

Well, whatever. The State Government is right. If you stop the heat from getting inside in the first place by shading the building, then you don't need as much air-conditioning...

Should be in the specs: Plant trees 20 years before building.

Originally Posted by woodbe

Haha!

Well, whatever. The State Government is right. If you stop the heat from getting inside in the first place by shading the building, then you don't need as much air-conditioning...

Should be in the specs: Plant trees 20 years before building.

Not only that, they have to be deciduous. For winter warmth!

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Greg Ward

They once used to have a window tax and as far as I can see, the carbon tax fits into the same stupid mould.

Actually the window tax is a good example of how a tax can work (admittedly not what they wanted at the time). People cut down on windows, perhaps they'll do the same with carbon.
Cheers,
Jim

The trouble is the impost, beit tax or permits, has to be about $40/tonne to make even gas worthwhile. So in fact it won't shut any coal generators down, at the very best it'll export our pollution mitigation with our polluters buying permits offshore.

If you believe the government can spend the revenue collected efficiently and effectively it may yield some useful programs via the new bureaucracies the government is setting up to administer the funds, but on past performance I'm not expectig that to happen. Rather more likely another jobs for labour mates scheme like the NBN.

The trouble with planting trees near buildings is increased maintenance, which may cost more than the power to run the air conditioners. Maybe not, I haven't run the numbers.

Incidentally refering back to the various self generating discussions, it would be interesting to look at the viability of biodiesel generator. 1 hectare of oil palms can yield up to 4700 liters of oil. be interesting to see how that plus a generator and battery bank would stack up to some of the alternatives.

I watched a programme on how 'green' Germany is yesterday.

1. They have feed in tarrifs. You get paid 3X the retail price of electricity produced by your solar cells fed into the grid than you pay when you re-purchase electricity from the grid. This is great economics (and was copied by our wonderful labour NSW government before being canned as increasing electricity costs to everyone else by 10% or more) and means the rest of the community in Germany is subsidising the rich who can afford to pruchase the hardware

2. One town had gone green and proudly stated they were getting their electricity from solar, a few windmills AND hydro electric. Now..... this wasn't a new hydro scheme, they were just buying their electricity from an established one.... so the whole thing is a pea and thimble exercise. The hydro scheme was providing green energy anyway into the grid. Now they buy the electricity..... and suddenly they are green!

I just wish those pushing alternative energy would be honest; admit it is an expensive exercise and agree to pay the real cost of the green energy they are foisting on the community, thus putting their money where their mouths is. They should stop kidding themselves and trying to kid us, especially the young who are vulnerable to emotional claptrap.

Then they can have the moral high ground and condescend to us all from on high. But at least we won't have to pay for their principles.


Greg.

Greg

These are valid points Greg, you cannot kick start a change in the community or economy without throwing some money at it.

If you look at the solar subsidies in Germany per head of population and compare it to the fossil fuel industry subsidies in Australia per head of population its easy to see why its so hard to get alternative energy started in Australia - our governments say one thing but quietly do the opposite. Even the support they do give is subject to knee jerk changes that result in enormous economic turmoil. Its no surprise that companies like the Solar Shop are hitting the wall under those circumstances.

Germany has a massive export business in Solar, we have almost none - our ideas left the country for lack of government support and now we're buying the resulting products back at a premium.

Don't forget that most of our country and population are about 20° closer to the equator than anywhere in Germany. That Germany can make a fist of Solar and create an industry with such lean insolation shines a light on our own lack of direction in that area.

woodbe.

Originally Posted by damian

Incidentally refering back to the various self generating discussions, it would be interesting to look at the viability of biodiesel generator. 1 hectare of oil palms can yield up to 4700 liters of oil. be interesting to see how that plus a generator and battery bank would stack up to some of the alternatives.

Damian

Irrespective of how competitive this might be, I am not convinced of the wisdom in turning agricultural land formerly used for growing food into land for fuel production. As I have mentioned elsewhere, food is an equally contentious issue, although at least part of the problem is the uneven disritibution around the world.

Regards
Paul

Just a point of interest

I was watching a program the other night where figures were being thrown around cocerning carbon emissions.

What I hadn't known to that point was the very act of mining, particularly open cut,of coal releases large amounts of "greenhouse gases".

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Damian

Irrespective of how competitive this might be, I am not convinced of the wisdom in turning agricultural land formerly used for growing food into land for fuel production. As I have mentioned elsewhere, food is an equally contentious issue, although at least part of the problem is the uneven disritibution around the world.

Regards
Paul

Yep, if you read back through my comments I've made the point at length that as petrol went up the US swapped to ethanol in a big way, pushing up hte price of corn and thus many processed foods in the US. They literally had poor people IN THE US having to cut back on food purchases. If it has that impact there how will it impact undeveloped countries ? We also see poppies and coffe being grown in preference to food in some undeveloped countries and creating food price increases.

That isn't what I was contemplating.

My plan is to sell my properties in Brisbane, move to small acreage, probably in a NSW coastal area, and go off grid. With the yield density of oil palms you may be able to produce enough bio diesel on site to meet your energy needs, say with an acres of planting. What I was saying is it'd be intersting to run the numbers on that scenerio.

artme:

Quite right. Massive amounts of methane are released from coal seams. This is what blew up that mine in NZ last year (last year?), and it's basically what they are drawing off in coal seam gas mining. In well run coal mines they pump air into the mine to keep the mix below the explosive range. The air and methane are blown out the exits from the mine by this positive pressure.

Originally Posted by damian

artme:

In well run coal mines they pump air into the mine to keep the mix below the explosive range. The air and methane are blown out the exits from the mine by this positive pressure.

I used to live in NSW near an underground mine. They had huge problems with both underground water and methane gas. They built a huge water containment dam for the water they pumped out and issued the miners with wet suits because of the water they had to travel through to reach the coal face. That partially solved the water problem.

In the end, despite the installation of two more ventilation shafts much larger than the original vents, the mine was shut down as it was deemed to be unsafe.

The primary problem was that their original test bores had failed to identify the level of both the water and methane concentrations.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by damian

That isn't what I was contemplating.

My plan is to sell my properties in Brisbane, move to small acreage, probably in a NSW coastal area, and go off grid. With the yield density of oil palms you may be able to produce enough bio diesel on site to meet your energy needs, say with an acres of planting. What I was saying is it'd be intersting to run the numbers on that scenerio.

I at least partially got the wrong end of the stick there. I just wish it was the first time I have ever done that.

If some of the issues are price, sustainability and the environment you may be ok on the first two, but with the last one you still have emissions to contend with.

However, if you are interested in the bio diesel path, have you looked at recycling the waste oil product from the fish and chip shops? I think you may even have made reference to this in the past, but in any event, it may be cheaper still, not require the same level of energy input and not take up agricultural land.

This is always assuming the government doesn't cotton on and impose a tax.

Lastly, this may be viable for you in your situation, but it is not a proposition for the vast majority of the population and if we are considering the national problem we do need to find a more universal solution. nevertheless it would be an interesting exercise.

Regards
Paul

I'm used to being misunderstood As long as you give me the opportunity to explain myself before you lop my head off so at least I'm executed for something I meant.....

Spent cooking oil is almost fought over these days. Many people with older diesel cars have cottoned onto it as a cheap fuel. Minimal processing and if you sweet talk the shopkeeper it's free! Much better than $1.50 a liter at the bowser.

The main reason I was thinking about the diesel option is the blugen thing. I'm still shocked at the cost of gas vs electricity output of that device, so it got me thinking about other assumptions we make, like that growing oil and burning it in a diesel generator must be dearer than other options.

Massive amounts of methane are released from coal seams. This is what blew up that mine in NZ last year (last year?), and it's basically what they are drawing off in coal seam gas mining. In well run coal mines they pump air into the mine to keep the mix below the explosive range. The air and methane are blown out the exits from the mine by this positive pressure.
__________________

Damian i think i recall you worked in mining,the question that's on my mind is why don't they salvage this methane and we use it ,or is it only a small amount .