Thread: Asking a Client for money

Originally Posted by wheelinround

John I understand what your saying aout a fixed pricein many lines of repair its easy such as yours. I know computers are not as you know it may not be that simple to diagnose or repair. Similar with auto's.

I know where you are coming from Ray and I agree, it is not always easy to diagnose a problem such as with computers however, once the problem is diagnosed, a fixed price for fixing the problem should not be difficult once you know what component you need to fix it.
In the case of hanging shelves or a dryer, there is no diagnosing any problem. The shelves and the dryer has to be hung and it shouldnt be that difficult, surely to come up with a fixed figure for doing that?

As you say Ray, this argument has been going around for some time and I realise that some things cannot be foreseen in some projects but I still maintain that in many cases the "charge by the hour and materials" type quote is purely for the sole purpose of many "tradesmen" to "up the price" at the end of the job.,

I had many projects undertaken when I was property developing in sydney and if I couldn't get a fixed price on a job from one contractor, I waited until I found a contractor who could give me a fixed price. And in all honesty, I can say, I didn't have much trouble finding contractors who worked that way so guess it was their gain.

At the hourly rates mentioned ,how much do I charge for a Special Jewelery box I have spent 35 hours on and still have a few to go ??????.
regards John.

Originally Posted by nine fingers

At the hourly rates mentioned ,how much do I charge for a Special Jewelery box I have spent 35 hours on and still have a few to go ??????.
regards John.

$40 an hour = $1400. Not bad mate, that's if you work cheap according to some on here. $65 per hour would be $2275. That sounds even better. Hopefully you will be able to keep it below $3000

Originally Posted by munruben

It's great if you were in a position to do that WW and in your line of work, being very specialised, you can probably adopt that attitude however, it is not always that easy with all trades. Competition is very strong in some industries and, excuse the expression, "a dime a dozen" In other words, it would be much easier to find a good painter of my caliber than a good Furniture restorer of your caliber. Guess you could call it supply and demand.

It brings to mind a quote of my daughter when she was just starting out in the real estate business. She was being interviewed for a job with a competitor of the company she was working for and the interviewer asked my daughter her thoughts on what the company should pay her for her services. My daughter mentioned a figure and the interviewer replied that his company could not pay that amount to employ her, as they were only just starting out in business themselves, to which my daughter simply replied "Well in that case, you can't afford me"

I understand what you're saying (not that I'm blowing my own trumpet) but you also supported my argument with the tale of your daughter: If the job offer/job-in-hand isn't tolerable, then you're better off walking away until a more mutually agreeable job comes along.

The grief (not to mention the possible loss) from accepting a less than agreeable job can have long-felt detrimental effects. There's also the danger that if one does forge ahead with a cloud hanging over the job, you might be tempted to cut corners to save money and the customer will often sense desperation and be on the offensive when it comes to final inspection, and so the snowball begins.

On the suspicion of something potentially going 'wrong', I'd prefer to walk away while both parties are still amiable, than becoming embroiled in a fruitless job where the likely outcome is that neither party is content and your name becomes sullied.

Should have mentioned I'm a 4th yr carpentry app, so estimating the amount of time it takes to do some jobs is something I'm still learning. I absolutley agree with the importance of giving an overall price, but the shelves I was putting in were not straight forward, they had to be cut and installed separately, very finicky. I knew it would take at least a day, and I told the client that.

Still though, I suppose I'll have to get used to this type of situation ehy...

I do appreciate all the comments.

Originally Posted by nine fingers

At the hourly rates mentioned ,how much do I charge for a Special Jewelery box I have spent 35 hours on and still have a few to go ??????.
regards John.

The last bar I did took 300hrs and still raised eyebrows at a price point of $3k, minus out materials I got $5.38hr, I can get regular 12 hr OT's at work for nearly $50hr and up to 4 a month is comfortable to do(60hr weeks)

But it was for a friend and also to get some of my work noticed by a wider audience of backyard bar type crowd

The trouble is, people have wildly varying expectations. Not everyone knows what is involved and what is good quality or value. The same goes with work done by lawyers , accountants, financial planners etc etc. Some "best practice" approaches I have seen in various industries for the purpose of overcoming this issue (amongst other things) is to create clear expectations throughout the job about the price and the value the client is receiving. In that way, achieving the outcome is seen as a job well done.

It is sometimes a pain to have to "sell" a job you have already got, but the job is only part of the equation of the business transaction - which will not realise its true value without managing the customers expectation. This also means educating them a bit on what is really going on.

And a fine bar it was Harry I remember the pictures well
cheers
Pete

Originally Posted by Woodwould

On the suspicion of something potentially going 'wrong', I'd prefer to walk away while both parties are still amiable, .

Absolutely agree. Nothing worse than having to argue at the end of the day, with a client who is not happy.

Originally Posted by Gary_H

Should have mentioned I'm a 4th yr carpentry app, so estimating the amount of time it takes to do some jobs is something I'm still learning.

Gary! I was in my industry (Roof restoration and painting) for over 40 years and I was still learning when I retired fully last year. It's never ending mate, there is always something to learn You just have to learn from experience and not make the same mistakes again if we can help it. Not always easy. I'm sure even MM has made a few mistakes at one time or another too and knowing MM to be a very upfront and honest guy, would be the first to admit it. but its all part of the learning experience.
Good luck for the future Gary, I had no intention of demeaning your work or your qualifications mate. I am sure your work is excellent.

Gary, since it is early in your career, the approaches you take in your vocation at this stage will make a profound difference to the success of your career.

I have been an adviser to business clients for over 20 years and I have seen less skilled people be more successful in business than those with far higher skills. This applies whether they are carpenters, doctors or whatever.

Customer relationships is the cornerstone of any business transaction which is in turn based upon effective communication. In other words in managing a job, you have to manage the actual work as well as managing the client. Effective client management not only leads to a higher customer satisfaction rate, it also enables you to earn more money through the confidence and reputation that you build up.

I would also urge you to look at the most successful trades people that you are aware of and see what they have in common (apart from good quality work). I would suggest that some of the things are:

1. Clients are fully aware of costs up front and have every aspect of the job explained to them. In this way they can see what they are getting in detail and will actually appreciate knowing what is involved.

2. Any variations are communicated immediately, preferably confirmed in writing, and not delayed until the end of the job. There is never a pleasant way to disappoint a client, however, this approach is better for everyone.

3. If you really can't meet a deadline or meeting etc, ALWAYS call and inform the client and negotiate an alternative. This is one of the most important factors because it is a test of how good your word is.

Obviously there is more but the above is what other people see and it is other people who determine how good your reputation will be.

Originally Posted by nine fingers

At the hourly rates mentioned ,how much do I charge for a Special Jewelery box I have spent 35 hours on and still have a few to go ??????.
regards John.

I have seen this box.The workmanship is superb,way better than I could even dream of ever doing.The box would be worth $1500 or so,but to get it from the customer is another thing.It is a one off to order.The customer knows it.Got you to make it .So they know the quality of your workmanship.

Originally Posted by Woodwould

When I used to accept private restoration work, I'd always give an estimate (not a firm quote) and explain that all sorts of issues can arise that aren't initially obvious and therefore the final bill could vary somewhat. If they raised an eyebrow at that point, I wouldn't entertain further discussion and would walk away.

What's more, if they were a new customer and it was a substantial job (perhaps a number of pieces of furniture) I would request a deposit (more of a test of their will to part with money than my need for it) and then I'd sometimes ask for periodic payments too, and when the work was all finished, I'd submit a small final bill (including carriage) which was payable before the furniture was returned. In return, I'd make it clear that they were always welcome at the workshops to inspect progress.

Originally Posted by rsser

If you undervalue yrself likely the client will too.

Both spot on.

Originally Posted by rsser

What's left by the time you've paid GST, tax and various insurances?

And travel time, clean-up time etc?


Way, way back when I was a uni student, I used to coach high school and uni students in maths and computer programming for a coaching college.

I gave it away after six months because although I was paid for the time actually spent on the job, they were all one and two hour jobs with unpaid travel in between.

I was actually better off all round by just working one night per week driving a taxi continuously for 12 hours at a lower average hourly rate of pay than I was by getting an hour here and a couple of hours there over several nights. I had a family at the time and being away for one long night was better than the broken shift thing over several nights also.


Also. I might mention that I just paid $85 per hour to get my outboard motor serviced this week. I suspect that changing oil and filters and using a grease gun on an outboard motor is no more skilled than what a handyman would do on many jobs.


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