Thread: CoronaVirus ==> Empty Shelves

Calm everybody, some empty rhetoric is once again starting to flow
Know you are all stressed but nasty comments about other nationalities is possibly really not appropriate at this time

One of the most profound quotes ever:

" Any man's death diminishes me because I am involved with mankind: Therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls, it tolls for thee." (John Donne. 1572 - 1631) Reference to the bells signifying funerals.

I have quoted it many times, but never before has it been so pertinent as it is in these times.

Hemingway plagiarised it a little in his novel "For Whom the Bell Tolls" about the Spanish civil war and it is that extract that is most familiar to us.

Regards
Paul

I don't know if you've seen this, but worth a watch:

Originally Posted by BobL

The pharma grade glycerol finally came today and I mixed up some IPA based hand sanitzer using the WHO IPA recipe. Hand feel seems good although it's quite a bit thinner than the usual hand gel stuff but it works very well in a spray bottle. Now we can have a bottle in the car, one by the front door, one in the kitchen, one in SWMBO's hand bag and a couple of spares.

Good for you Bob. Having it in abundance and in plenty of places increases peace of mind, if nothing else.

Something I've heard second hand from an aged care nurse is that when using gel it should only be 3 times per day because greeblies can be trapped between the layers of gel. I question "3" layers: why wouldn't 2 do it? In any case I would think that a good lather up would take things back to bare skin, and the process could start over again.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Something I've heard second hand from an aged care nurse is that when using gel it should only be 3 times per day because greeblies can be trapped between the layers of gel. It sounds plausible, but I question "3" layers: why wouldn't 2 do it? In any case I would think that a good lather up would take things back to bare skin, and the process could start over again.

Hand gel will only denature the bugs on your hands. It offers no protection against any you might pick up after it dries. Each application will do the same job and it's highly doubtful that the gel itself would create a barrier or safe haven for any flora.

mick

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Thanks Mick. It does sound self-defeating, because if the gel is going to trap bugs between layers then self-evidently it is not killing them, and therefore useless anyway.


Have removed "It sounds plausible, but" from my post so that anyone who reads it doesn't get a wrong impression.

Good thinking, 99!

Originally Posted by Glider

Hand gel will only denature the bugs on your hands. It offers no protection against any you might pick up after it dries. Each application will do the same job and it's highly doubtful that the gel itself would create a barrier or safe haven for any flora.

mick

From what I seen/experienced not all hand gels are the same. Some are thin/runny that evaporates quickly while others do leave a slightly sticky residue that hangs around for many minutes even hours but I suspect most of this will be the moisturising components. I actually don't like this feeling so I end up washing my hands as soon as possible afterwards. If anything I then wonder if the moisturiser being sticky subsequently picks up and carries around more virus?

Originally Posted by BobL

From what I seen/experienced not all hand gels are the same. Some are thin/runny that evaporates quickly while others do leave a slightly sticky residue that hangs around for many minutes even hours but I suspect most of this will be the moisturising components. I actually don't like this feeling so I end up washing my hands as soon as possible afterwards. If anything I then wonder if the moisturiser being sticky subsequently picks up and carries around more virus?

I may have said this in an earlier post but can't remember. Adding Glycerine (glycerol) to hand gel inhibits evaporation of the alcohol and to some extent dilutes it. Glycerine is a humectant and is used in toiletries to moisturise skin. To my mind it seems a bit pointless adding it because alcohols will dissolve some of the lipids from the skin and moisture won't replace them. It's possible that some formulators will add fatty esters and some of the longer chain ones will feel sticky. Some gels might also retain some of the liquid medium with the same outcome. I've told my family to make a solution of 75% metho, 25% water and thicken to the desired viscosity with Aloe Vera gel which they've harvested from the garden. They've all provided positive feedback.

mick

p.s. I used to formulate this sort of thing.

This is worth a read:
How did this coronavirus start? It probably came from bats, but how and why? - Science - ABC News

Originally Posted by Glider

I may have said this in an earlier post but can't remember. Adding Glycerine (glycerol) to hand gel inhibits evaporation of the alcohol and to some extent dilutes it. Glycerine is a humectant and is used in toiletries to moisturise skin. To my mind it seems a bit pointless adding it because alcohols will dissolve some of the lipids from the skin and moisture won't replace them.

I agree about glycerine reducing alcohol evaporation during application but I doubt its doing much dilution since the amount in the WHO recipe is only added at 14g/L. My understanding is that rather than attempting to replace lost lipids, glycerine is also added to generate a barrier to reduce the amount of further moisture loss from the skin after application? Isn't that really how skin moisturizers work?

Originally Posted by BobL

I agree about glycerine reducing alcohol evaporation during application but I doubt its doing much dilution since the amount in the WHO recipe is only added at 14g/L. My understanding is that rather than attempting to replace lost lipids, glycerine is also added to generate a barrier to reduce the amount of further moisture loss from the skin after application? Isn't that really how skin moisturizers work?

I'm not familiar with the WHO formula. Given that>95% of the formula will evaporate, 1.4% should be enough to moisturise the skin but not really as a primary barrier. Glycerine is hygroscopic hence it's classed as a humectant. For those unfamiliar with the term, it attracts water to itself.

Skin moisturisers are supposed to work in two ways, depending on the formula. Bear in mind that they are not subject to clinical or even efficacy trials, only animal testing in the old days. Currently I believe they use only ingredients tested for hypersensitivity. Most are oil in water emulsions of lipophilic ingredients like lanolin, mineral oil, fatty waxes etc. in a continuous water based phase which contains glycerine or sorbitol. The insoluble fatty phase does the waterproofing and the humectants attract and retain water. Scientifically, it doesn't make sense, but that's what the market accepts.

When I worked in cosmetics and toiletries, it was always said "We're in the business of selling dreams".

mick

Originally Posted by Glider

I'm not familiar with the WHO formula.

The meths brew, by volume, is
83.5% Ethanol at 95-96% purity
1.5% Glycerol at 98% purity
2% H₂O₂ at 6% strength
13% H₂0 at 100% strength. If the water is diluted then vary accordingly. Water should be boiled and cooled (although I can't see what the cooling will do - at 13%, it'll hardly heat things up much)

So they are aiming for 80% purity of alcohol (83.5% of 96% is 80%).

For using IPA there is a change to the alcohol/water content but I can't remember it off the top of my head.

Originally Posted by Glider

I may have said this in an earlier post but can't remember. Adding Glycerine (glycerol) to hand gel inhibits evaporation of the alcohol and to some extent dilutes it. Glycerine is a humectant and is used in toiletries to moisturise skin. To my mind it seems a bit pointless adding it because alcohols will dissolve some of the lipids from the skin and moisture won't replace them. It's possible that some formulators will add fatty esters and some of the longer chain ones will feel sticky. Some gels might also retain some of the liquid medium with the same outcome. I've told my family to make a solution of 75% metho, 25% water and thicken to the desired viscosity with Aloe Vera gel which they've harvested from the garden. They've all provided positive feedback.

mick

p.s. I used to formulate this sort of thing.

I made up both a WHO Ethanol formula with Glycerol and WHO Isopropyl formula with Aloe Vera. I have read that the amount of water added to both formulae is critical to achieve the concentrations and effectiveness of the alcohol (eg 75%-85% v/v for Ethanol). Ethanol requires a slightly higher proportion of alcohol to water. Efficacy drops dramatically below 60% alcohol concentrations.

Both mixes are thin and runny. The time required to achieve max efficacy is 10 to 15 seconds. That will be achieved with the WHO formulae. A thicker mix that takes longer to evaporate achieves no extra benefit and mixes that are too thick could be counterproductive.

Some research has shown that Ethanol is slightly more effective with viruses and Isopropyl more effective with bacteria. Washing your hands for long enough with soap is more effective than both, but not always possible, thus the role of the rubs. The rubbing is an important aspect of the protocol.

Covid-19 (Sars-CoV-2) appears to be very contagious, but fortunately it is vulnerable to soap and alcohol rubs in the right formulation. Detergents are also effective on surfaces. These rapidly dissolve the lipid membranes that hold the virus package together. The components of the virus fall apart and then can't pass on the instructions to replicate more virus.

Trivia: According to the microbiologist in my family, we don't kill the virus as they are not by strict definition alive. They are more like a computer program that can do nothing until inserted into and activated by a computer. Viruses are hijackers. They need living cells to allow the virus code to be activated, to replicate and be lifelike.