Thread: Electric, Hybrid or Just Wait

Originally Posted by rrich

There seems to be a large sentiment for autonomous vehicles. I have driven a level 3 autonomous vehicle on the 405 Interstate in the Los Angeles area. It was a Sunday and early afternoon. There wasn't much traffic but enough for a sufficient test of the technology. The vehicle was a Cadillac something or other. The car had lane keeping and speed keeping functions.

The Cadillac did what it was supposed to do. I set the speed to be a bit faster than traffic. The car did exactly what it was supposed to and told to do. When we approached an interchange with another Interstate highway, the autonomous feature disengaged and I resumed control.

The Interstate or freeway is 4 lanes plus a carpool lane. There are places where the lanes can grow from the previous mentioned 5 to 7 or 8 in the area of entrances and exits. I was driving in the second lane plus carpool from the center medium.

There were places where the experience was delightful. There were other times that were terrifying. The terrifying aspects were when looking ahead and seeing one of those, "What is that idiot doing?" and 2 lanes over. Normally I would have lifted. But the Cadillac is driving and "It ain't in my lane so I ain't going to worry." In this case I'm thinking "That idiot is going to . . . . ." Sure enough, the idiot did and the Cadillac had to brake noticeably. And there is the real problem with autonomous vehicles. None of the vehicles have Mind Reading 101 installed. While most of us, after years of driving on limited access roads have developed a sense of "I know what that idiot is going to do." Not real mind reading but it keeps us alive out there.

On a side note. My son has a commute on the Interstate and he will see something out of character and wonder why did they do that? When he catches up to the vehicle he realizes it was the autonomous vehicle and not the driver.

I could never drive or even be in such a car, it would freak me out

I did a rough calc the other day and I've driven so far about half a million kilometres in 5 different countries, and I've never been in (or be the cause of) an accident. I learned to drive in Greece which is a whole different kettle of fish, you have to use all your senses all the time just to stay alive. Ever tried to drive in narrow slippery streets with a swarm of scooters orbiting you, dodging potholes while being tailgated and honked at as soon as you don't break the speed limit or don't cross a red? That's Athens. As a result my driving is weird to most people. I basically do what I know is safe for me and everybody around me, and yes that goes beyond the rules sometimes, but it goes both ways. Like, I don't care if I have the right of way or a green light in front of me, I just don't trust people to stop for me, if I sense something sightly wrong I WILL slow down, all the way to a stop on the side if I have to. In my experience road rules, even if everyone follows them, are correct and safe 99.9% of the time. And that's just not good enough because I am on the road long enough for that 0.1% to become important.

No idea how you'd explain all that to a car and trust it to do it.
Not for me, sorry.

As a teen, I learned or rather was taught to drive in Southern California. My mother was the primary instructor and could not back up a vehicle if her life depended on it. ("When I back up it feels as if the car is in control and not me.) When my father was the instructor, all he did was scream, yell, curse and brow beat me. It was so bad that I got a neighbor to take me in her car to take my behind the wheel test. When I passed and the license came in the mail both of my parents had different reactions. My father was livid because he lost control and my mother was delighted as there was someone to driver her around.

After I passed my test I became the chauffer for the family. The best thing that ever happened was the speedometer cable broke in my father's car and the speedometer stopped working. My mother ALWAYS sat in the front passenger seat. The only words I ever remember her saying were, "Ooooh you're going too fast." The good thing about no speedometer is that I learned to "Go with the flow" at a very early age. In California Go with the flow is the basic unofficial traffic law. I have been in traffic going with the flow at 88 MPH or 142 KPH in the LA Metro area and 95 MPH or 153 KPH in a rural area. The 95 was a bit scary and of the group of 30 or so going 95 about half dropped out of the group and slowed to around 80 after moving out of the fast lane.

I wound up in jobs that required travel. In the US, various areas are like going to different countries based on driving styles.
Florida - What are you aiming at?
Boston - ALWAYS get the collision damage waiver on the rental car.
New York city - Take a cab.
Rochester, NY - Flying in from Pittsburgh I was on another planet before I got out of the airport.
Washington DC - Hold the rental car map at eye level for all to see. Use your turn signal and even the cabs will get out of your way.
Pittsburgh - Probably the most polite drivers in the world.
The rest of Pennsylvania - Watch out for the state troopers.
Ohio - Rural - They are farmers with no sense of time except for Sunday go to meeting.
Ohio - City - All different, everything from good to bad and worse.
Texas - Seat belts are mandatory. But you can legally drink beer while driving. Don't be the first to drive through the dirt to exit the freeway but it's OK to follow the path.
Houston - Don't be surprised by topless drivers. Only been there a few times but saw at least a dozen total.
Denver - Advice from a resident was "Beware of muddy pick-up trucks on the freeway."
Seattle - No lane discipline what so ever. Traffic gets very bad when there are sun bursts.
Anchorage - Courteous until you try to take advantage.
Phoenix - Not bad except during 'Snow Bird' season, then when the light turns green look both ways.
San Francisco - They think that they are the West Coast New York City, but they're not.
San Jose - A.K.A Silicon Valley - Too aggressive for a long life span.
Los Angeles - Into down town very mellow, just use your turn signal. Into Orange County beware.

Finally
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada - Slow down, take it easy, everybody loves you.
One of the few cities on this continent where I could easily relocate.

Almost as good as Canberra drivers. They take the cake. Worst I've experienced anywhere in the world.

-- Sit in your blind spot (what is with this????)
-- Can't merge / zipper
-- Will NOT give way
-- Will NOT let you in
-- Will NOT slow down to let you in on freeways, in fact they speed up to block you
-- Half are asleep after work (haven't woken up after leaving their desks apparently)
-- Bumblers. Bumbling blumblers. Dreary. Sleep walking. Too much medication.... Neeevvveeerrrr iiiinnnn aaaa hhhurrryyyyy... time works at 1/3rd speed for them.
-- The other half drive up your
-- 80% refuse to use blinkers, and if they do, its AFTER they've moved into the lane (BMW X-series drivers still dont use use them at all, but that's universal!)

and the clanger? Red Lights ... unless its red for a full second, they keep going through it. EVERY time I drive I see at least one or two incidents of where our light is green and some turkey flies through. Its terrible. Worse, is the light changes here are as slow as a week of Sundays.


Contrast this to Sydney. Ah, love Sydney. Drove through Leichardt, Glebe, Stanmore, Ultimo for a couple of times for a couple of weeks and .... wow. Flows, no agro, smooth, predictable. Sure it was chaos incarnate... but zero agro, zero accidents and zero fingers. Everyone happy and doing their thing.


On electric cars, China is pounding them out. Dirt cheap! They are pretty basic, but thats what the VW Beetle did... cars for the masses... They sell for something like $8000.... let me see if I can find the info.

Check Out These Five New Electric Cars From China, World's Largest EV Market
Chinese Electric Cars Will Take Over The World – If We Let Them
G.M. Wants to Make Electric Cars. China Dominates the Market. - The New York Times


What I really love is certain authorities are being smart. France (?) (I think) has a rule where kids can drive these low-powered hyper-basic cars to school as they are limited to 30 or 40km/h. This is super smart. Given a BIKE can do 40km/h this is nothing a kid cant handle.

Once a bumbling auto-car is invented, these things will be EVERYWHERE! Imagine the excellence of a car that takes the kids to school, comes home, charges, takes dad to work, repeats, takes mum to the shops, repeats and then takes the kids to their friends after school. All with safety, security, an auto-call back function.... fantastic!

I started driving around 12 LOL
Only in the summers though, around the holiday house. Most kids around there did, some havent bothered to get a license to this day.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Almost as good as Canberra drivers. They take the cake. Worst I've experienced anywhere in the world.

-- Sit in your blind spot (what is with this????)
-- Can't merge / zipper
-- Will NOT give way
-- Will NOT let you in
-- Will NOT slow down to let you in on freeways, in fact they speed up to block you

This thing, speeding up to ensure they don't let you merge? I've never seen it anywhere else in the world.
It's the exact same thing as being inside an elevator, and as soon as you see someone running to get in you start hitting the "close doors" button repeatedly
No one does that, but as soon as they get behind the wheel, they do it. it's so weird...

The other thing that does my head in is when you're stuck on the freeway bumper to bumper for an eternity, wondering what the hell is going on up ahead, and then when you get to the bottleneck you realise it's just some guy with a flat tyre on the side of the road or something stupid like that, and everybody slowing down almost to a stop just to have a good look at him.
OMG when that happens I wanna get out and start throwing stones at the cars LOL

Originally Posted by Spyro

when you get to the bottleneck you realise it's just some guy with a flat tyre on the side of the road or something stupid like that,

You think that is bad?

A gal in short shorts and a brig shirt tied around her waist changing a tire will destroy traffic flow twice. Twice? Yeah. Her doing her thing and then a bit further down the road for the second time and the fist fight among the 14 blokes that stopped to help her.

In California Go with the flow is the basic unofficial traffic law.

Have to agree with this. I'd been warned both by Australians who'd driven there and Americans from other parts of the country, that Californian, especially LA, drivers were terrifying, so I wasn't looking forward to driving there. However, I found that the only way to drive safely was to drive the same way as everyone else - fast, close to the person in front, but if someone needs to change lanes in front of you, let them in.

Re merging, when I drove to work there was one point where the exit from a 70 km/h main road merged onto a 90km main road. During the week, almost always the merge was smooth. People would speed up from 70 to 90, and slip in smoothly. At weekends, there would always be someone who came to a stop waiting for a break in the traffic.

Just today I had to take my F-150 to the dealer for a recall. After the pick-up truck had been updated I'm driving on the 91 freeway to go home. I'm in the #2 lane just going with the flow at over 85 MPH (136 KPH) AND people were passing me on both sides.

And there's genuinely no reason not to drive that fast on a freeway. Pretty much any car built in the last 30 years will comfortably cruise at 130 km/h, tires and brakes are miles better than they were 50 years ago when 100 km/h was actually fast, and you're gonna be just as dead crashing at 100 as 130

Originally Posted by rrich

There were places where the experience was delightful. There were other times that were terrifying. The terrifying aspects were when looking ahead and seeing one of those, "What is that idiot doing?" and 2 lanes over. Normally I would have lifted. But the Cadillac is driving and "It ain't in my lane so I ain't going to worry." In this case I'm thinking "That idiot is going to . . . . ." Sure enough, the idiot did and the Cadillac had to brake noticeably. And there is the real problem with autonomous vehicles. None of the vehicles have Mind Reading 101 installed. While most of us, after years of driving on limited access roads have developed a sense of "I know what that idiot is going to do." Not real mind reading but it keeps us alive out there.

On a side note. My son has a commute on the Interstate and he will see something out of character and wonder why did they do that? When he catches up to the vehicle he realizes it was the autonomous vehicle and not the driver.

My petrol powered car would have reacted exactly the same way. Until cars talk to each other directly and this is in the prototype stage the lane swapping problem will continue. The autonomous driving problems always crop up in BEV discussions for some reason when they really have no relationship to the original question. The reason there has been very little real world answers to Mick's OP is that the electric BEV is still a fairly rare beast in Oz and will remain that way due to the overriding non action of the politicians and their refusal to follow the subsidy schemes put into place in other countries. VW Australia are on record saying that they encourage natural market forces and no subsidies but that was before VW Europe went pedal to the metal to introduce a plethora of new BEV models. I wonder if they still hold the same view?

Here is an article that shoots my hypothesis and enthusiasm to shreds!

The hype, high hopes and sobering reality of the future of car travel - ABC News


Hindenburg!

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Here is an article that shoots my hypothesis and enthusiasm to shreds!

The hype, high hopes and sobering reality of the future of car travel - ABC News


Hindenburg!

From the linked article we get a comment that at best is misleading and is simply untrue. Misleading in the fact that solar power can recharge a battery and untrue because it will fully recharge the battery if it is connected long enough. As for the electrical infrastructure not being able to handle the added load that has been debunked more than once. The UK for instance has reduced power consumption in recent years so that country has unused capacity in the grid.

"However, electric cars, they have huge batteries, they need a lot of energy to charge those batteries — more than any household solar system array can provide," Kilvert says.

I had worked with a person from the Charlotte, North Carolina area. Connie and I were going to fly there to attend a couple of NASCAR races. She gave me advice about turn signals.

"In Charlotte, if you see a vehicle with their turn signal on, they probably bought it that way."

Unfortunately I wasn't there long enough to ascertain the truth or myth.

Probably a lot of members are familiar with this site but for those who are not I’ll add this link.

Green Vehicle Guide Home

Interesting information on specific vehicle CO2 emissions, L/100km, exhaust noise levels and testing etc. etc. It does include hybrids and electrics.
I used to use the info for my automotive students when they were doing theory and practical exercises.