Thread: Future of the Australian Electricity Market

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

... With six turbines available at the Swiss plant, some could be generating while others are pumping ...

With utmost respect, Paul, I absolutely disagree. This does not make sense in economic or engineering terms.

It takes a lot of energy to pump water up hill, a lot more energy than is generated by it flowing back down hill. I very much doubt that those Swiss pumps could pump water vertically 215 metres - surely their must be a series of pumps up the pipe?

If we assume that the net efficiency of the pumping system is 80%, then this means that it takes 125 kWh of pumping to supply enough water to generate 100 kWh of electricity. [calc = 100/0.80 = 125] If you have 125 kWh of wind/solar electricity available then surely you would pump it straight into the grid rather than use it to make 100 kWh of hydro electricity. If prices are so low that you can take electricity from the grid to pump water, why waste precious water simultaneously generating hydro electricity?

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Here is another component for the melange....

Porsche-backed HIF Global wants to build an e-fuel plant in north-west Tasmania. So what are e-fuels and what could it mean for Burnie? - ABC News .... "100 million litres of e-fuel each year"
... i

I saw that and other press reports that are so vague as to be virtually meaningless. Time will tell.

Interesting that they are using the Porsche label, when Porsche is a wholly owned brand name of the Volkswagen Group. Wonder why they chose not to use the Skoda or VW name. But Woody and I would probably prefer a Lamborghini model?

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

I saw that and other press reports that are so vague as to be virtually meaningless. Time will tell.

Interesting that they are using the Porsche label, when Porsche is a wholly owned brand name of the Volkswagen Group. Wonder why they chose not to use the Skoda or VW name. But Woody and I would probably prefer a Lamborghini model?

We are a Formula 1 family. Porsche is interested in getting a team going.

The F1 group have been talking this year, non stop, about going back "to its roots" of V10's with turbos and the fuels that run them. The battery storage is nifty, but it weighs a ton.

The BIG part of that discussion is wanting to appear as a Good Corporate Citizen. Using Fossil fuels just won't do.... and methanol is a disaster as it burns invisibly (VERY bad!).

So, they have been working on synthetic fuel replicas. The cars will use those.

If these are made with the formula of --> Sunlight/Wind electrons + Atmospheric CO2 + H2O = Magic Fuel.... then nobody will complain.

Hence, I believe, the Porsche tie-in.

Personally, I like the idea. Imagine popping up a turbine + solar panels and have some mini factory burp out a small lake of spare fuels for the power turbines "when the wind isn't blowin'", then it goes part way to solving the nay-sayers arguments.

(I'm an optimist).

Originally Posted by woodPixel

... So, they have been working on synthetic fuel replicas. The cars will use those.

If these are made with the formula of --> Sunlight/Wind electrons + Atmospheric CO2 + H2O = Magic Fuel.... then nobody will complain.

Hence, I believe, the Porsche tie-in. ...

That is absolutely fantastic.

Porsche will mix atmospheric CO2 with ordinary H2O and get a magic fuel.

Last time I mixed CO2 with H2O I got H2CO3 which is known as carbonic acid and also known as soda water. I thought there was a bit a detail missing from the media reports.

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

That is absolutely fantastic.

Porsche will mix atmospheric CO2 with ordinary H2O and get a magic fuel.

Last time I mixed CO2 with H2O I got H2CO3 which is known as carbonic acid and also known as soda water. I thought there was a bit a detail missing from the media reports.

The H2O is hydrolysed you numpty

It also needs a palladium catalyst, or even a titanium dioxide photocatalyst under UV light and 6 atmospheres of pressure.

For those interested: E-diesel - Wikipedia

I think SOME these will prove to be good investments.

Australia '''on track''' to generate half its electricity from renewable sources by 2025, report finds - ABC News

Very interesting!

Originally Posted by woodPixel

... I think SOME these will prove to be good investments.

I am not as mega-optimistic as you!

Less than 1% of research ever results in a succesful product - but VW think this is worth a punt.

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

I am not as mega-optimistic as you!

Less than 1% of research ever results in a successful product - but VW think this is worth a punt.

How excellent would it be if one could buy a little "Brew Factory" for the home.

Plug in in, power it with the solar and wind off the roof, pour in water in one end and out trickles High Octane Rev Juice

Max Max averted!

Yes, Im overly optimistic on tech. Im very pessimistic about humans though. I personally feel we are doomed as a species... we can't seem to stop ourselves.

When we talk of nuclear power the subject of initial cost is often a party pooper. Two aspects that are not so frequently raised are the decommisioning cost and the cost if something goes wrong.

This judgement in Japan over the Fukushima disaster may give the proponents of nukes a little cause to re-think:

Fukushima nuclear disaster: ex-bosses of owner Tepco ordered to pay ¥13tn (msn.com)

£80billion is a lot to split between five directors! In Australia directors have ultimatel liability for the company they represent and any or all of their assets can be requisitioned to pay an adverse decision.

Regards
Paul

£80billion is a serious amount for sure but will it ever be actually paid.
I am cynical enough to think that all this is a symbolical gesture to allow these bosses to apologise by simply bowing...

What is far more worrying about Fukushima is the 1.25 MILLION TONS of contaminated water to be released - read dumped - into the ocean sometimes in 2023. And the number is growing by the day....

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

When we talk of nuclear power the subject of initial cost is often a party pooper. Two aspects that are not so frequently raised are the decommisioning cost and the cost if something goes wrong.

This judgement in Japan over the Fukushima disaster may give the proponents of nukes a little cause to re-think:

Fukushima nuclear disaster: ex-bosses of owner Tepco ordered to pay ¥13tn (msn.com)

£80billion is a lot to split between five directors! In Australia directors have ultimatel liability for the company they represent and any or all of their assets can be requisitioned to pay an adverse decision.

Originally Posted by yvan

£80billion is a serious amount for sure but will it ever be actually paid.
I am cynical enough to think that all this is a symbolical gesture to allow these bosses to apologise by simply bowing...

I'm not sure about Japanese corporate law, but here in Australia, company directors are fully insured for this sort of potential payout.

And, again using Australia as a "model", no actual liability payment will be made till all legal avenues of appeal have been exhausted.
I believe that in Japan there are TWO levels of appeal above the Tokyo District court. So there's a ways to go yet.


What will be interesting is the impact the judgement has on reinsurance rates for company and director's liability insurance.

Originally Posted by yvan

What is far more worrying about Fukushima is the 1.25 MILLION TONS of contaminated water to be released - read dumped - into the ocean sometimes in 2023. And the number is growing by the day....

The real question should be "what is the concentration of the radiation in the contaminated water?"
If it's 1.25 million cubic metres (tonnes) at 10 x background, there is no real reason to worry,
if it's 1.25 million cubic metres (tonnes) at 10,000,000 x background -- the situation is very concerning

Home battery sales are rising with volatile power prices and some owners are installing several to make more money - ABC News

Edit - I'm curious, given how conspicuous/expensive/useful these things are, how long will it be before they are knocked off in a series of heists?

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Originally Posted by ian

I'm not sure about Japanese corporate law, but here in Australia, company directors are fully insured for this sort of potential payout. ...

Are you sure, Paul?

Most, if not all, public companies insure their directors and senior management against all liabilities arising from their positions. However, I doubt that any company has $80 billion in coverage.

In fact, world wide, could the industry handle an $80 billion policy?

Now, here is a thing!


PG&E announced that more than 1,500 Tesla Powerwall owners have already decided to joined the new virtual power plant it launched in partnership with Tesla in California.

Electrek reports: A virtual power plant (VPP) consists of distributed energy storage systems, like Tesla Powerwalls, used in concert to provide grid services and avoid the use of polluting and expensive peaker power plants. Last year, Tesla launched a test VPP in California, where Powerwall owners would join in voluntarily without compensation to let the VPP pull power from their battery packs when the grid needed it. Last month, Tesla and PG&E, a large electric utility company in Northern California, announced the launch of a new commercial VPP where homeowners with Powerwalls would get compensated for helping the grid with the energy in their battery packs.

PG&E has now released an update on the virtual power plant and said that more than 1,500 Tesla Powerwall owners have already joined the program: "On June 22, Tesla invited approximately 25,000 PG&E customers with Powerwalls to join the VPP and help form the world's largest distributed battery. In the first two weeks of the new program, more than 3,000 customers have expressed interest in enrolling, with more than 1,500 customers officially in the program." With an average of two Powerwalls per customer, the VPP most likely already has a 13 MW load capacity. PG&E says that if all eligible Powerwall owners join, the VPP would have the available megawatts equivalent to "the energy generated by a small power plant." Tesla Powerwall owners can join through the Tesla app and receive $2 per kWh that they send back to the grid during emergency events.

"Enabling Powerwall customers to support the grid and their community is a necessary and important part of accelerating the transition to sustainable energy," said Drew Baglino, senior vice president of Powertrain and Energy Engineering at Tesla. "We seek to partner with utilities and regulators everywhere to unlock the full potential of storage to bring more renewable, resilient, and less costly electricity to everyone."