Thread: Honey NOT so sweet

They're drilling through the drinking water aquifer that supplies all of S. Texas. The official word is that contamination of the water is impossible. I don't believe it for a second. Within 3 months of the initiation of fracking we noted a change in the taste of our tap water. Then I built the water filter system.

We've taken some trips to Houston (East and downwind) for business over the past few years. The smell from the fracking is atrocious. Any thicker and cars might run just by sucking in the hydrocarbons in the air and igniting the mix.

Texas is a strange place where 'truth' is relative, never absolute. For instance, I've been watching the progress of a prion disease in deer, it's called chronic wasting disease, around the US. This disease is like Mad Cow Disease but for cervids (deer and such). For years the State of Texas insisted that CWD wasn't present in the Texas deer herd. Mind that deer hunting is BIG business in Texas. However CWD had been documented in all of the surrounding states, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas and Louisiana. I guess those sick deer just knew better than to cross the border into Texas, right? Now CWD has officially been found in Texas, in fact not far from San Antonio but get this - only in captive bred deer. San Antonio is about 180 miles from the nearest border (Mexico) and about 200+ miles from Louisiana. So I guess those Texas deer really know how to do the long-jump huh? The officials say the deer were brought in from out of state, and they may have been but it is not possible to believe that this disease of wild free roaming animals somehow magically stopped at the Texas border.

Just cause somebody has a Pee Aych Dee doesn't make them a scientist, scientists have the education and, critically, scientists are honest.

Originally Posted by MAPLEMAN

Clearly the lead found in the honey can be traced to human activity...blind freddy can tell you that.

don't be too sure about what blind freddy can tell you ...

from what's been posted in this thread the lead in Broken Hill honey most likely comes from the dust blowing around the area, rather than "pollution" contaminating the bees.
I'd hazard that if there had been bee hives in or near Broken Hill in 1882, the year before the mineralisation was discovered, the concentration of lead in the honey would have been higher than it is today. The source would have been dust from the surface outcrops of lead ore -- if I remember correctly these outcrops were mostly lead oxide.

Hm, another mountain of poison, reminds of Libbey Montana and asbestos.

Originally Posted by rob streeper

Hm, another mountain of poison, reminds of Libbey Montana and asbestos.

do naturally occurring surface deposits count as "poison"?


and if you want asbestos contamination -- there's a newish bit of road in NSW built entirely on fill because the natural surface materials contained high levels of asbestos sourced from the natural erosion of the surrounding rock. It was deemed safest to build the road on fill rather than disturb the local material.
on the basis that wind blown dust is a significant source of contamination, honey collected in the area would be high in asbestos.

Originally Posted by ian

do naturally occurring surface deposits count as "poison"?


and if you want asbestos contamination -- there's a newish bit of road in NSW built entirely on fill because the natural surface materials contained high levels of asbestos sourced from the natural erosion of the surrounding rock. It was deemed safest to build the road on fill rather than disturb the local material.
on the basis that wind blown dust is a significant source of contamination, honey collected in the area would be high in asbestos.

Lovely old Asbestos ...Qld Government chief health officer informed me that he would happily live in and around Asbestos dust without consequence ...the political hierarchy also told me the fibres didn't float in the air for anymore than a few metres and of course that it is safe enough to drink/eat...NO chance of it being found in honey one would assume...MM

Originally Posted by ian

don't be too sure about what blind freddy can tell you ...

from what's been posted in this thread the lead in Broken Hill honey most likely comes from the dust blowing around the area, rather than "pollution" contaminating the bees.
I'd hazard that if there had been bee hives in or near Broken Hill in 1882, the year before the mineralisation was discovered, the concentration of lead in the honey would have been higher than it is today. The source would have been dust from the surface outcrops of lead ore -- if I remember correctly these outcrops were mostly lead oxide.

This highlights the importance of collating info on natural background levels for comparative analysis...MM

Originally Posted by ian

do naturally occurring surface deposits count as "poison"?

If they are and you eat them, yes. Pharmacology can be thought of as dividing the world into three basic classes of stuff: Food, Drugs and Poisons. Anything that's not a Food or Drug is a Poison.

Originally Posted by ian

don't be too sure about what blind freddy can tell you ...

from what's been posted in this thread the lead in Broken Hill honey most likely comes from the dust blowing around the area, rather than "pollution" contaminating the bees.
I'd hazard that if there had been bee hives in or near Broken Hill in 1882, the year before the mineralisation was discovered, the concentration of lead in the honey would have been higher than it is today. The source would have been dust from the surface outcrops of lead ore -- if I remember correctly these outcrops were mostly lead oxide.

It most likely to come from the mining. There will be some small contribution from lead outcrops but it will be swamped by lead in dust and other natural sources.

About the most sensitive environmental reservoir we have is Polar ice and snow and the method used is isotopic fingerprinting . Our lab did a lead isotope in ice cores going back thousands of years and there were no BH lead deposit lead isotopes in the ice until the mining started in the 1890s. Within months of starting the mining lead isotopes had reached Antarctica. Later when BH lead was used in petrol the isotopic finger print print became even clearer.

Originally Posted by MAPLEMAN

This highlights the importance of collating info on natural background levels for comparative analysis...MM

Yep.

About a decade ago our lab put up a proposal to a mining company and the govt to set up and run an isotope survey around a proposed new mine site before mining started so potential spills could be detected and then blame apportioned. Isotopic surveys are very expensive and I think we asked for about $400k for a 2 year research program - well that was never going to happen was it and not just because of the cost.

I also participated in a Govt sponsored "experts" panel about best practice regarding a certain type of mining. The panel consistent of scientists, engineers, an economist, lawyers and govt advisers with the latter 2 making up about half the panel. The paperwork was horrendous and I have never heard so much gobbledygook from lawyers and govt advisers in my life so it took me a couple of meetings to work out the whole thing was just an covering exercise so I resigned. After the report was written, even though I had resigned they still asked me to bill them for the numbers of hours I had spent working on the materials but I declined to take any money for this sort of nonsense. Could say a lot more about this and other stuff but I signed certain confidentiality agreements. By that stage in my working life I was so jaded with they way this whole business was going I didn't have the energy to make a stink about it - still don't, just need some peace and quiet life.

Interesting fact that Rhododendron and Azalea nectar contain grayanotoxins which can also find their way into honey
Potential to make one very sick if consumed
A number of other flowering plants also contain alkaloids that pose a threat also...MM

Originally Posted by BobL

I also participated in a Govt sponsored "experts" panel about best practice regarding a certain type of mining. The panel consistent of scientists, engineers, an economist, lawyers and govt advisers with the latter 2 making up about half the panel. The paperwork was horrendous and I have never heard so much gobbledygook from lawyers and govt advisers in my life so it took me a couple of meetings to work out the whole thing was just an covering exercise so I resigned.

just shows what a sheltered life you led in academia. When you said that lawyers and government advisers made up half the panel, that told me precisely what the panel's task was.

Before I retired, the process had got so bad that lawyers were being commissioned as the prime contractor for writing government funding bids.

Originally Posted by BobL

It most likely to come from the mining. There will be some small contribution from lead outcrops but it will be swamped by lead in dust and other natural sources.

About the most sensitive environmental reservoir we have is Polar ice and snow and the method used is isotopic fingerprinting . Our lab did a lead isotope in ice cores going back thousands of years and there were no BH lead deposit lead isotopes in the ice until the mining started in the 1890s. Within months of starting the mining lead isotopes had reached Antarctica. Later when BH lead was used in petrol the isotopic finger print print became even clearer.

picking 1882 as the date was deliberate as it represents the year before the discovery of the deposit. Mining commenced in 1885. Working from memory, the surface outcrop of the Broken Hill ore body was extraordinarily rich -- something like >40% lead. For some context, according to Wikipedia, average metal grades for the Broken Hill ore body through 1946 (lead and zinc combined) were 21.5%.
so my expectation is that while dust from mining might be detectable in Antarctic ice after the 1890s, in 1882, before mining commenced, the local dust would have been very high in lead.

Originally Posted by ian

picking 1882 as the date was deliberate as it represents the year before the discovery of the deposit. Mining commenced in 1885. Working from memory, the surface outcrop of the Broken Hill ore body was extraordinarily rich -- something like >40% lead. For some context, according to Wikipedia, average metal grades for the Broken Hill ore body through 1946 (lead and zinc combined) were 21.5%.
so my expectation is that while dust from mining might be detectable in Antarctic ice after the 1890s, in 1882, before mining commenced, the local dust would have been very high in lead.

Turns out this is what the mining companies and Govt like you think so they can blame "natural contamination", but it turns out this effect is quite small.

The lead isotopes in dust sampled around an exposed undisturbed lead ore body turns out to be mainly dominated by what's in the wider area local soils and rocks which is usually quite isotopically different to the lead in the ore so can be clear distinguished and apportioned. If the deposit is anywhere near a dry region, dust from hundreds or even thousands of km away can contribute in a major way to local dust.

The other factor is that exposed and weathered lead ore bodies (gossans) are quite tough and resistant to abrasion compared to many other surface rocks, and as ore outcrops represent only a small fraction of the area of exposed soil/rocks they don't contribute much to local dust even if wet they contribute is highly concentrated. It's only when the ore body is disturbed by mining and especially by smelting that large amounts of lead are dumped into the atmosphere that mined ore lead isotope signatures are picked up.

Here is an article that includes one of my former students in the author list.
https://research.jcu.edu.au/tropwate...eltingtown.pdf

Xstrata Pty Ltd and Queensland Government agencies havedisputed the industrial source of environmental Pb and haveargued persistently that the elevated PbB of local children and Pbin the Mount Isa urban area are sourced predominantly from natural surface exposures of orebodies. This line of argument hasbeen maintained despite the fact that mining operations at MountIsa have already been connected strongly to environmentalcontamination (Parry, 2000; Queensland EPA, 2008, Taylor andHudson-Edwards, 2008; Munksgaard et al., 2010; Taylor et al.,2010, 2011; Mackay et al., 2011, Mackay and Taylor, 2013).

Here's a study of how dietary intake influences colorectal cancer risks:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...m_medium=email

The crux of the paper is that you can reduce your chances of developing CR cancer by about half, more if you're male and less if you're female, if you choose to consume a diet that is low in foods that provoke inflammatory responses relative to a high inflammation index diet.

This describes the inflammatory diet index and gives you an idea of what to avoid. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4958288/

Combine the low inflammation diet with not smoking and moderate alcohol consumption and you'll do yourself good.