Thread: An outsiders view of The Lucky Country

Originally Posted by corbs

I think you need to leave Australia to truly appreciate how good it is.

Or:
"I think you need to leave Australia."

Originally Posted by wheelinround

John if your deleted post was pointed at my take on what the Prof had written sorry I seem to have upset you and NO I didn't see your post.

America I do not care for never wish to go there nothing there draws my attention well enough.
I have had my fill of America & American's at first hand during my driving years.
knew some who immigrated here and friends, know Aussies who lived in USA.
The Aussies who have lived there all can't wait to get back here sadly some can't leave US behind they want to bring all it has to offer here.

I also immigrated here with my parents who dragged me kicking and screaming away from friends and relations much the same as many USA citizens kids I suppose. I came to love this country and all its wonders, its freedom and its diverse culture/s and I have tasted many from original inhabitants through from being a kid during my working years and still.

I have lived in a time and suburb when and where bikies took over the street and had 4 days of freedom due to lack of Police 3 cops was all that could muster to prevent what took place. Some 200+ bikies, brawling, rapping, shooting, assaulting general public. Mid 60's

I have seen and lived where one nationality has forced others out for their own greed and need without as much as a head turn from authorities because of racial discrimination threats. That was in the late 60's I have seen it 3 time since then my own in-laws had to sell up due to local council who refused to halt what has proved to be another lie and use of racial discrimination to gain what was developed.

My comments were not all tongue in cheek as many are fact.
Sadly all to often Australia has sold itself far to cheap to USA and we will suffer in the long run.

For someone who has never visited the USA you seem to be very willing to judge Americans and their way of life Ray.

You apparently base this on your experience of driving around American tourists.

If I were to base my opinion of Australians on the behaviour of (quite a few) Australian tourists in, for instance, Kuta-Bali or Phuket-Thailand or my opinion of Brits on the behaviour of (quite a few) Brits in Benidorm-Spain then my opinion of these 2 nationalities would not be very high.

Sorry, but the American Prof at least based his opinion on personal experience visiting this country, and didn't base his opinion on ill-informed stereotypes.

I also think you need to remember that both your country of birth and your current country of residence owe a lot to those very same Americans you seem to despise so much.

Originally Posted by corbs

I think you need to leave Australia to truly appreciate how good it is.

Or come from somewhere else

Originally Posted by Big Shed

For someone who has never visited the USA you seem to be very willing to judge Americans and their way of life Ray.

You apparently base this on your experience of driving around American tourists.

If I were to base my opinion of Australians on the behaviour of (quite a few) Australian tourists in, for instance, Kuta-Bali or Phuket-Thailand or my opinion of Brits on the behaviour of (quite a few) Brits in Benidorm-Spain then my opinion of these 2 nationalities would not be very high.

Sorry, but the American Prof at least based his opinion on personal experience visiting this country, and didn't base his opinion on ill-informed stereotypes.

I also think you need to remember that both your country of birth and your current country of residence owe a lot to those very same Americans you seem to despise so much.

Yes and no Fred the majority were tourists but all were travel agents most of who the Australian Governments (read tax payers) paid to come here and enjoy the short 2 weeks traveling far and wide. Then there are those whom I have known as I said personally. As you have said about me not living there, I like wise have said to those Aussies who wish we lived like they do in the USA. One thing I learnt from the travel agents was one I was told " No normal American worker can afford to come to Australia due to the pay system either they live on tips or they get paid piece meal" I was not the only driver who was told this and the owner was also. Makes you wonder who in Government did the research doesn't it??

I see we have gone off track bring in other countries always the way it is so hard to stay on topic and see how others see it.

I agree the Prof did base his experience on his time here just as I have based my experience on how I have seen Australia embrace what they perceive America to be like whether they have lived there or not.

I have seen such as you mention of bad behaviour from all sorts here when its our own we seem to stand back and say "Its the Aussie way its accepted and expected"

I would say I have lived in a number of environments and area's lived with a variety of families mostly Aussies, worked with far more ethnic types male and female than I can recall and seen a great deal as well as experienced Australian life and culture yet I am still after all an Englishman I can never become a true Australian its not possible.

If Australian's accept the true Australian's those here long before any European walked upon its shore or should that be the other way around should they accept European's and allow them to integrate

Originally Posted by wheelinround

Yes and no Fred the majority were tourists but all were travel agents most of who the Australian Governments (read tax payers) paid to come here and enjoy the short 2 weeks traveling far and wide. Then there are those whom I have known as I said personally. As you have said about me not living there, I like wise have said to those Aussies who wish we lived like they do in the USA. One thing I learnt from the travel agents was one I was told " No normal American worker can afford to come to Australia due to the pay system either they live on tips or they get paid piece meal" I was not the only driver who was told this and the owner was also. Makes you wonder who in Government did the research doesn't it??

I see we have gone off track bring in other countries always the way it is so hard to stay on topic and see how others see it. I think we are completely on topic, actually. The Prof was saying we don't know how lucky we are, and we are discussing that. Clearly some of us don't, in fact, know how lucky we are.

I agree the Prof did base his experience on his time here just as I have based my experience on how I have seen Australia embrace what they perceive America to be like whether they have lived there or not.

I would say I have lived in a number of environments and area's lived with a variety of families mostly Aussies, worked with far more ethnic types male and female than I can recall and seen a great deal as well as experienced Australian life and culture

So does this indicate that you haven't been outside Australia as an adult?

Originally Posted by wheelinround

....yet I am still after all an Englishman I can never become a true Australian its not possible.

Being Australian in the Third Millenium is not about skin colour or how long our ancestors have been here for. It's a state of mind. Take Bushmiller for example: a born and bred Londoner who emigrated here when he was approx late 20s. A finer example of living the Australian spirit would be very difficult to find. In fact the only thing that gives him away is the residual London accent (and his second passport, I suppose ).

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

.... A finer example of living the Australian spirit would be very difficult to find. In fact the only thing that gives him away is the residual London accent (and his second passport, I suppose ).

This is going to go way off topic so please be warned.

Personally I am not aware of any other country that has two passport systems.

I have often wondered if I could get a temporary passport for the country that I am visiting so that I can go into the local queue at immigration just to get through customs quicker.

An interesting view by our American friend.

I seems it was more inspired by what he did not like about the USA. Nothing wrong with that. We can all find things we don't like about where we live.

I have been lucky enough to have traveled over a reasonable area of this earth so here are some observations of my own.

We are lucky to live in Australia!!

In comparison with most countries we have a good health system. Perhaps some adjustments need to be made, but
on the whole it works well for most of us - the vast, vast majority of us. When in the States one time Ana had to go to the doctor.$US 65!!!
In Chile things are different as they too have a great health system. A visit to a hospital there cost us the paltry sum of $AU 10 because we were foreigners!!
And, BTW, the standard of care was excellent. Brazil, where I have spent much time, is a health care nightmare. Like America you need the dollars to get even
satisfactory treatment, even though the general standard of medicine is very good.

We do have governments and judiciaries that are accountable. Witness the number of politicians and judges that have experienced the force of the law.
You may think more should go this way, as do I, but My experience and reading shows that we are streets ahead of many places in the world.

As for food, well I guess it's a matter of taste. Yes, pun intended!! I did not enjoy any good steak in the US as it was all grain fed. I could not find a good coffee
of any sort in the US. The rest of the food was fine. In Brazil you can get relly good food if you look and pay. Some of their restaurants serve glorious food. For
ordinary person earning a minimum salary in Brazil getting really good food regularly is a struggle. Food in Chile is great and the best steak, by far, that I have ever
eaten is in Argentina. Food in Europe tends to be expensive but of good quality. NZ tucker is tops as is Canadian.

As for the great outdoors we are indeed lucky. One of the great parts of Australian life has always been the ability for people to find affordable camp and caravan sites
right next to the beach! Unfortunately this privilege is being eroded by greedy developers and compliant councils. I always feel safe in this country, in NZ, Europe and Chile.
I always felt reasonably safe in the USA and Canada. In so much of Brazil and Argentina one always has to be on guard.

Australia is often decried for becoming a "Nanny State". Well, let me tell you from experience that the safety laws, rules and regulations throughout this country are probably
second to none. When you witness and experience some of the things I have in other parts of the world you should be more than thankful that we are the way we are. My
wife's cousin's grandaughter - aged just 16 months- drowned in a pool on new year's eve due to an unfenced pool as there are no laws anywhere in Brazil requiring pool be fenced.
How precious is a child in any part of the world???

As for the behaviour of people when a way from home I've seen bad example s from all over the world. On a couple of cruises the worst examples were from Germans and Americans.
However I also witnessed bad behaviour from Australians, French, Brits, Greeks and Brazilians. No one nationality seems to be immune from this.

We have hosted over 40 people of different nationalities over the years. All have been envious of our way of life. All have also been mystified by some of our attitudes, such
as our general lack of respect for politicians! All have missed their own country and I guess it's a matter of what you grow with or become accustomed to.

I'm glad I live here, Ana is glad she lives here. We both think we are very fortunate.

Seems my words have swung round, at no time was I saying I disliked being here actually the opposite. I was pointing out all those USA iconic things he missed, all those facts he didn't follow through on and some tongue in cheek stuff too.

Brett I didn't know it was a prerequisite to have been to USA to have an opinion on some guys comments of his holiday/tour of Australia I don't see anywhere in his comments the length of his stay? I met a USA girl a Uni student taking a gap year before starting work, many years ago she did 6 weeks in Australia and had been to every state travel was by thumb and front suicide seat of many a semi. I see it he was being very tongue in cheek with some if not many of those.

In fact his pointing out about FREE camping makes me wonder how he traversed this great land? he did mention driving some of it, how long was his stay? I know our grey nomads readily spuke free camping spots along their route.

When we go on holiday or when I used to take seniors away back in the 80's to new places they had never been I'd hear often " Oh I'd live here tomorrow" !!!
Some in fact many did move and soon found out the great differences in visiting a place as to living in a place is vastly different.
I honestly was no different I suppose as I had considered often getting out of Sydney metro.
Having lived beach side along the north coast of Newcastle with my Aunt & Uncle often I saw first hand the lifestyle differences, the freedom, the lack of services, the beauty, the close knit community of which I was greatly accepted into. Then moving to Tamworth with my own children for 10 years till they finished high school and due to a Government change we had to move as it killed any hope of employment or future for them we were not the only family to move, when the population went from 35k to 31k in months .

I have seen not a lot of Australia mainly the east coast I do not need to travel OS to know how blessed this county is. My sons and their wives must travel OS for holidays, one because its summer time in Croatia where MIL & FIL still own a home, they have done holidays here Hamilton Island, Gold Coast MIL & FIL own a home up the coast just south of Newcastle as well as their Sydney home.. The other to the USA where DiL shops till she can't shop anymore she refuses to pay for the same gear here at Australian prices and she is 6th? generation Aussie she hates holidaying in Australia reckons its to pricey and its not worth the $$$$. Maybe I should show her this fellows thoughts........nope she refuses to go camping.

Its great to see so many OS investors wishing to buy up our coastal regions and build massive holiday resorts though Ask them for the $$$$$ for infrastructure.



Fred yes USA did much for England and Australia who was part of that British Commonwealth during the war years, UK not long ago paid off their dept to USA of the loan/s.

Wheelin, the problem I have with your initial post is that you not only managed to trash every positive thing the Prof had to say about Australia you managed in some small way to trash Australia. Do you not realise a compliment when you see it, how can you be so negative about so many positive comments?

Just bring a bit of perspective to this discussion, it seems from reading Mason's bio that he has an Australian wife Cally Conan- Davies . I liked his article when I saw it in The Age last Australia Day, but my initial response was similar to wheelinround's. And that is because I have that Australian trait of being a "knocker" and "self depreciation", which you see all around us. I see these traits on these forums all the time.

When I read wheelinround's comments I took them as balance, and see them as valid. This is not in defense of his comments as he's doing ok for him self there. We Australians have a lot to protect and those that have traveled or come from other countries would know that. I was in Hawaii a couple of years ago and was told by a local citizen in a general conversation that, "your government treats its people well". He was of course comparing his own government to ours.

TT

Originally Posted by wheelinround

I loved who ever wrote this sense of poking the tongue at Australian's

Grumpy John

Wheelin, the problem I have with your initial post is that you not only managed to trash every positive thing the Prof had to say about Australia you managed in some small way to trash Australia. Do you not realise a compliment when you see it, how can you be so negative about so many positive comments?

John I have quoted myself above this was typed above my first comment highlighted in Blue so not to be missed. As I have stated it was my view of his view on his tour/holiday.
I seriously could have gone off the rails but it seems that many prefer the USA lifestyle more than our own what ever that maybe for since I landed on these shores Australia and its culture has grown some. It has changed dramatically some for the better and some for the worse. Again if its your view on my take of his then so be it.

Twisted Tenon

Just bring a bit of perspective to this discussion, it seems from reading Mason's bio that he has an Australian wife Sally Conan- Davies . I liked his article when I saw it in The Age last Australia Day, but my initial response was similar to wheelinround's. And that is because I have that Australian trait of being a "knocker" and "self depreciation", which you see all around us. I see these traits on these forums all the time.

When I read wheelinround's comments I took them as balance, and see them as valid. This is not in defense of his comments as he's doing ok for him self there. We Australians have a lot to protect and those that have traveled or come from other countries would know that. I was in Hawaii a couple of years ago and was told by a local citizen in a general conversation that, "your government treats its people well". He was of course comparing his own government to ours.

TT

TT Thanks for the links I will check them out latter never heard or seen of them before. I also am glad someone else saw it a similar way.

I agree whole hearted with "We Australians have a lot to protect" even though I am not Naturalised but have been here now over 50 years from the age of 5.

I saw in the Prof's comments that in the USA everything has a price sadly all to often Australia although it may sell off its wealth and toil its far to cheap in comparison.

His view of restaurants I found comical, every town & city has its own take on these to the point Katoomba has fought had and long to stop fast food giants encroaching there are many other suburbs (I wish they had fought in the Liverpool district lost count how many of the same in a radius of 7k)

How many Australian food restaurants are there about and I do mean our own food not nationalities from around the globe.?
During the late 90's 2000 period we had chefs and bush tucker hammering us with Roo, Crock, Emu, Bush veg and fruit some restaurants took to it very few are about today mostly in high end tourist centres. Oh and I have and do eat it when we can afford to and get it.

Hamburger, fish n chips we have a plenty although these also have changed due to push for healthier eating the oil not lard or dripping is now used, salt has been pushed aside some and Chicken salt used more.

The worse side is GM food stuffs thank goodness the light got turned on there lets hope we keep that glowing at all times.

Service stations/ garages few and far between refueling or quick stop centres seem the norm now.

I personally do not begrudge my life I do feel sorry for those who begrudge my life of which now because of health and Government laws I have little control over. I fight daily to try change that here at least I can.

Originally Posted by wheelinround

.........
I agree whole hearted with "We Australians have a lot to protect" even though I am not Naturalised but have been here now over 50 years from the age of 5.

Sorry Ray, shouldn't that read "YOU Australians have a lot to protect"?

If you have lived here in this country for 50 years and have not become an Australian citizen you have no right to talk about "We Australians" because you aren't one.

It does however explain some of the statements you made in your comments in the earlier post.

Originally Posted by Big Shed

Sorry Ray, shouldn't that read "YOU Australians have a lot to protect"?

If you have lived here in this country for 50 years and have not become an Australian citizen you have no right to talk about "We Australians" because you aren't one.
It does however explain some of the statements you made in your comments in the earlier post.

Fred
This bloke has worked his whole adult life in Australia and presumably paid his fair share of taxes. He has also further contributed by raising more Australian citizens. The issue of Ray's citizenship may be a grey area and I don't know enough of his circumstances to judge his status, however The Australian Government website >Long Term Residents< indicates that Ray may have been automatically naturalised. I am concerned that it seems that the replies to Ray's posts appear to be attacking his right to make these comments, rather than just challenging his thoughts.

TT

Originally Posted by Twisted Tenon

Fred
This bloke has worked his whole adult life in Australia and presumably paid his fair share of taxes. He has also further contributed by raising more Australian citizens. The issue of Ray's citizenship may be a grey area and I don't know enough of his circumstances to judge his status, however The Australian Government website >Long Term Residents< indicates that Ray may have been automatically naturalised. I am concerned that it seems that the replies to Ray's posts appear to be attacking his right to make these comments, rather than just challenging his thoughts.

TT

TT, I am not attacking his right to make comments, I am questioning his right to call himself an Australian citizen., ie someone entitled to hold an Australian passport. Nor did I raise the question of his citizenship, Ray did.

I have already challenged his thoughts and we appear to be "agreeing to disagree", which is fine by me.