Thread: Woodworking Coffee Adicts

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

I have to assume that when an establishment selling coffe goes down this track, they undergo training. Why would you part with upwards of 10K worth of coffee gear and not find out how to use it? l

Take Qantas club. Stale coffee in $10k machines that have not been set up right. They set the grinder way too coarse so the water gushes out quickly (can't keep customers waiting) resulting in near white crema over some dirty brown acrid water. I know these machines can make a good coffee - I have had many from the same make and model machine in a Geneva Univ cafeteria.

I complained to QC several times - no feedback.

Eventually a sign goes up - "coming soon, each club will have a trained barista!"

The next time I go in there's sign proclaiming the barista, a dude in a black apron standing in front of their usual gushing machines with the same stale coffee, all the barista does is (over) froth the milk - big deal!

After deciding whether to have a coffee or not I walk over, but said dude is not there. There's a lady close by wiping tables and she notices me, "Can I's help ya luv?", I'm just waiting for the "bareesta" I say. "Never mind, I can do it, and what'll be?". So I ask for a double espresso please and she pushes a button and it's the same "near white crema over some dirty brown acrid water"

Contrast that with the Kuwait air port business lounge, where two knowledgeable barista's serve a more than acceptable coffee with proper crema.
"Where did you train and for how long?" I asked, "Dubai, for 3 months".
"How many of you were being trained", "200, 6 of us were hired by Kuwait airport and some others went elsewhere".

Originally Posted by artme

Did someone mention Maccas and coffeee in the same sentence.??

Macca's "coffee" is the most putrid abomination ever put in a cup.

Not quite - I can safely say that in Seattle ie SHG (Starducks Holy Ground) there is a cafe chain called "Seattle's Slimiest" which will sell you a double shot espresso in a cup that looks like a medium size clear beer stein (ie it's there smallest cup) that tastes worse than maccas coffee.

The young woman on the ordering desk did not even realize they served espresso. "Oh, I'm not sure we do that", she chirps.
"Well it's on your menu board" I reply. (There are around 35 offerings on the board)
"So tis" she chimes, but I better check with the bareesta first".

Eventually the barista - an embarrassed pimply youth comes over and asks me what sort of a cup I would like it in. I'm somewhat confused by this and suggest a regular espresso cup. The barista explains they have no espresso cups because management wants to minimize the different numbers of sizes of cups they have in the cafe.
OK - I say give it to me in your smallest cup, so it arrives in the beer stein???? It's the same glass they use for a junior chocolatey malty something or other.

Thanks for the heads up Bb. I know where not to go if I ever get to Seattle!!

I don't think I've ever pleaded guilty to having even a reasonable cup of coffee anywhere in the States, Must go to the wrong establishments!

Had some good brews in Argentina and the odd one in Brasil. Funny how the Brasileiros grow great beans but don't have the drink down to a fine art,

We were in Venice and bought a short black in a small coffe shop there. Expensive, very small and then the bugger wanted $2 if I sat down to drink it!!!

Originally Posted by artme

Thanks for the heads up Bb. I know where not to go if I ever get to Seattle!!

I don't think I've ever pleaded guilty to having even a reasonable cup of coffee anywhere in the States, Must go to the wrong establishments!

Seattle is a little mecca of coffee in the US and while there's an awful lot of swill it has some superb cafes.

Zoka's near the University is one of the best cafes in the world. Baristas are well informed and friendly. The roast their own coffee and its just a great place.

David Schomers cafes on Broadway and Yale are simply outstanding cafes also equal for coffee to anywhere on the planet. BTW Schomer has written a (some say THE) definitive Text book on making coffee that is used as a text at serious barista school. he also has made 2 DVDs - very informative. His recommended coffee machine for home users is the one group - which costs about $9k!

Victorola cafes are also great places. The also roast their own - excellent coffee. Baristas are knowledgeable about what they are selling, friendly and accommodating without appearing flustered or annoyed and ask for feedback to check they got it right. Food was good at the 15th East st cafe.

There are more good places but that should give you the idea.

We were in Venice and bought a short black in a small coffe shop there. Expensive, very small and then the bugger wanted $2 if I sat down to drink it!!!

I found Italy a variable place for coffee and a lot of it has to hit and miss. I've had really good coffees in; Sienna, small cafe just off the main square, 0.6€; small village behind Positano, also 0.6€, in several places in Pisa. Venice is variable and although we only tried a couple of cafes in each place the coffee we had was average to disappointing in places like Luca, Torino, Perugia and Florence.

A friend and I were fantasizing about opening a cafe called "the half decent cafe" cos they were so hard to find. How come there are cafes everywhere but they can't make coffee OR tea!

Originally Posted by tea lady

A friend and I were fantasizing about opening a cafe called "the half decent cafe" cos they were so hard to find. How come there are cafes everywhere but they can't make coffee OR tea!

Coffee and tea making has some similarities to teaching and woodworking and the concept of half empty is better or worse than half full.

Everyone has been to school and been exposed to poor teaching so they think they can do better. Same with making good coffee or woodwork. Reality is recognizing something is not right is not the same as making it better. It's also not just a matter of training. Another major factor is consistency ie having to continually repeat a quality process under pressure and not become jaded by the process.

I have never worked in a cafe but have made coffee for up to 70 people at parties and I can see why a barista can become sloppy and take short cuts. Doing this a couple of times quickly put paid to the idea of becoming a part time barista. The skill of a barista is in making good coffee for hour after hour under constant pressure, and remaining passionate, charming and friendly about it.

Besides their day job, world champion baristas will go through many dozens of kg of coffee during their training. When Aussie Paul Bassett won the world championships it was said he used up 15 kg of coffee in the last few days training leading up to the final.

I love coffee, but don't think I'm a coffee snob, though it drives me nuts when people make coffee badly.

I usually drink Long Black as I hate the milk, tried soy for a month and reckon it nearly killed me, and you can't linger over a macchiato I'm also happy to drink a beverage called 'instant' when necessary. It's not coffee, and so long as you don't call it that I'm happy

My favourite coffee is from Ministry Grounds. I buy green beans and roast them myself with a heat gun and an old bread maker (on dough setting). it takes about 15-20 mins to roast 500g of coffee, and it's usually sensational unless i screw it up. Also costs me about $10-12 per kg for premium beans, which is fantastic. Oh, and the proprietor, Neil, is a fantastic person with great customer service who does it for the love of coffee

He also sells a hot chocolate called Zokoko, which is unbelievable. A tablespoon in a jug of milk, froth it up and serve - just amazing.

My home setup is fairly humble, a Sunbeam EM5900. I have the sunbeam conical burr grinder with it, which I think makes as much difference as having an espresso machine. Truly fresh coffee is worth it!

I work in Parramatta in Sydney, and most coffee is pretty ordinary. There's a little greek patisserie which makes really nice coffee, which I frequent.

My pet hate for coffee is making a long black by putting 2 shots worth of grounds in the group, then hitting 'go' until the cup is full . Oh, the other thing that drives me nuts are those who feel a hot black should be about 350deg, and full to the brim. Can't drink it and cant move it! 2/3 full with moderately hot water is all I need
Cheers,
Dave

My pet hate for coffee is making a long black by putting 2 shots worth of beans in the group, then hitting 'go' until the cup is full . Oh, the other thing that drives me nuts are those who feel a hot black should be about 350deg, and full to the brim. Can't drink it and cant move it! 2/3 full with moderately hot water is all I need

I agree, there is a real art to making a decent long black.

Although even I will occasionally drink a long black, in a strict coffee taste sense a hot long black has few redeeming features and is why it is not common in Italia. They call it "Cafe Americano" which is said to be a polite way of them saying "Coffee Stupid".

Adding hot (90ºC) water to a shot of espresso in a regular cup or mug quickly destroys the crema and rapidly releases the volatiles from the shot. Adding boiling water not only does this but immediately cooks the coffee as it decomposes some of the sugars and oils making an acrid tasting brew. To maximize the retention of the original coffee taste no more than moderately hot water (about 50º) should be added but this does not suit most coffee drinkers who after a hot drink they can linger over. Even at 50ºC a wide open cup will quickly release the goodies and the longer it sits the more escapes and decomposes. So lingering with a black coffee unfortunately for me means lingering with ordinary coffee.

For guests who ask for long blacks I try putting a dash of cold water in it before adding water from the coffee machine boiler but they nearly all say it's too cold and then want me to nuke it in the microwave! NOOooooooo!

Milk changes all this because it helps bind some of the oils and sugars extracted from the coffee. This is why adding cold milk first is better than adding the hot water and why even steamed milk should be no more than about 60-65ºC.

Give the above, running espresso over ice blocks should retain the maximum coffee taste/content. Unfortunately our taste buds and nose don't operate well below body temperature and some warmth is need to sense all the good bits. It's worth trying this - freeze a cup and run an espresso over a small ice block so it cools quickly - too many ice blocks will dilute the coffee with too much water. Taste immediately - this is the most intense real coffee taste you can get but you won't be sensing it as it is too cold.

This is why maximum real coffee taste is just espresso (not even sugar), all over in 60 seconds and is why Italians don't need to sit down to drink it. For lingering and if you don't like milk there is always the possibility of something on the side, eg water, tea, wine, or my preference, a shot of grappa in the espresso and another to rinse the cup.

Cheers

Interesting Bob. Would explain why many long blacks come with no Crema at all. Though when I make them at home, I boil the kettle and allow it to sit for a little while (have never measured the temp), then add two shots of coffe to it, and have always had plenty of crema.

Oh, and when I say lingering, I mean not drinking it within a few seconds. I'm not just drinking it for the caffiene, but to relax and enjoy the drink for a bit. May not be the pure way of doing it, but that's the way I like it

Interesting about the milk too, though I find milk diltues and competes with the flavour so much. An Australian cappuccino is 30-60ml coffee and about 170ml milk/froth (as opposed to the 30ml shot, 30ml milk, 30ml froth that is supposed to be in traditional italian cappuccinos...) Milk has a reasonably strong flavour and I just don't like it in coffee.

Cheers,
Dave

Originally Posted by Ozkaban

Interesting Bob. Would explain why many long blacks come with no Crema at all.

That - combined with stale coffee (beans and/or grinds) and/or over extracted.

Though when I make them at home, I boil the kettle and allow it to sit for a little while (have never measured the temp), then add two shots of coffe to it, and have always had plenty of crema.

If you roast your own you are Waaaaay in front and letting the kettle sit is also a much better way to do it. Same with plunger and instant coffee..

Oh, and when I say lingering, I mean not drinking it within a few seconds. I'm not just drinking it for the caffiene, but to relax and enjoy the drink for a bit. May not be the pure way of doing it, but that's the way I like it

Sure - I appreciate lingering over a coffee but then again I can take milk or occasionally for my second lingering cup I might have a warm long black. My mornings start with one or two espressos (both double shots) and then I'l have a milky one to linger with, on weekends I might then have a second milky or sometimes a long black

Interesting about the milk too, though I find milk diltues and competes with the flavour so much.

Yep I agree, which I why I prefer a 14g coffee shot with milk. My lingering milky's are only moderately hot and flat: 25 ml Espresso, 30-40 ml cold "half and half" milk and then ~100 ml of moderately hot water. This maximises the coffee taste.

Steaming the milk increases the dissolved concentration of lactose which is why warmed milk tastes sweeter and if you don't like sweetness or lactose that is not going to help either. I tend to just use cold milk.

An Australian cappuccino is 30-60ml coffee and about 170ml milk/froth (as opposed to the 30ml shot, 30ml milk, 30ml froth that is supposed to be in traditional italian cappuccinos...) Milk has a reasonably strong flavour and I just don't like it in coffee.

I agree - 170-180 g of milk and froth is way too much milk and it then becomes more of a coffee milkshake
Most Italian's don't know how to steam milk properly and tend to over steam it.

I also like what I call a minicap, 25 ml 14g (double shot) espressos with 25 ml of lightly textured steamed milk - minimum froth. Yum

Originally Posted by BobL

Steaming the milk increases the dissolved concentration of lactose which is why warmed milk tastes sweeter

Ah! A friend and I were talking abou this over a coffee this morning. (Although he has stopped having coffee. It all started when he had a killer flu and then he discovered that he didn't have heart burn anymore. He just gets to complain about the tea now. )

By the way, I had a wonderful coffee at RIPE this morning in Sassafras in the Dandenong Ranges,Victoria. Wonderful food too. Even worth riunning the gauntlet of pushbike riders on the weekends.

My worst coffee is not so much a horror story as a bit of time travel.
We were driving up in the wimmera and noticed a sign saying "real coffee". We went in and ordered two coffees. Instant coffee from a catering sized tin with undissolved lumps and the spoons still in the mugs. Served to us at chipped laminex tables.
Turned out that the "real coffee" related to a brand of ice-cream.
Cheers,
Jim

Originally Posted by jimbur

Turned out that the "real coffee" related to a brand of ice-cream.
Cheers,
Jim

Coffee ice cream would have been worth the stop!!! That Connoisseur Cafe Grande ice cream is unreal

Originally Posted by BobL

T...letting the kettle sit is also a much better way to do it. Same with plunger and instant coffee..

Good idea... will try it next time i do plunger

Originally Posted by BobL

I also like what I call a minicap, 25 ml 14g (double shot) espressos with 25 ml of lightly textured steamed milk - minimum froth. Yum

Kinda like a longer than standard mac. I tried it at lunch - it was quite enjoyable. Much more intense flavour for the whole cup. I have dubbed it the 'Cafe Bob' - bobaccino didn't seem right , and shal be a fixture from now on

Cheers,
Dave

Originally Posted by Ozkaban

Coffee ice cream would have been worth the stop!!! That Connoisseur Cafe Grande ice cream is unreal
Good idea... will try it next time i do plunger

Coffee icecream YUM

I once had a Coffee icecream affogatto with crushed carmelized sugar wafers and a drizzle of Kahlua - Just a tinse over the top maybe

Kinda like a longer than standard mac. I tried it at lunch - it was quite enjoyable. Much more intense flavour for the whole cup. I have dubbed it the 'Cafe Bob' - bobaccino didn't seem right , and shal be a fixture from now on

Yep - extra long mac