Thread: Finger joint jig

Questions:

Why don't you use the ali template and attach it to the Gifkins jig proper? The jarrah is going to move all the time.

Why can't you use mdf with the Gifkins to cut DT's? I made a couple of test boxes out of mdf when testing designs and they joint perfectly?

(Getting onto soapbox)

I feel that you've got a bit of gall to publicly post a rip off of a patented item. I feel it is irresponsible for you to do this.

(Getting down from soapbox)

Gazaly,

Replies to your questions:

>Why don't you use the ali template and attach it to the Gifkins jig proper? The jarrah is going to move all the time.

The aluminium template is too thin to allow thin stock to be used so I needed a thicker base.

>Why can't you use mdf with the Gifkins to cut DT's? I made a couple of test boxes out of mdf when testing designs and they joint perfectly?

I tried at first but found that the joints needed 'teasing' to get rid of the undercut and chip out.

>(Getting onto soapbox)

>I feel that you've got a bit of gall to publicly post a rip off of a patented >item. I feel it is irresponsible for you to do this.

>(Getting down from soapbox)

I am not ripping off the Gifkins product, I am using FINGER JOINTS not DOVETAILS. There is a similarity in some aspects of the design but I am not sure that anyone completely redisigns the wheel each time a new jig is made. I am a geat fan of the Gifkins jig and have bought both sizes and use then frequently with real wood rather than paper and glue.

Regards

Mike

Great work Mike, You must have the patience of JOB.

Regards, Breslauer

Originally Posted by gazaly

(Getting onto soapbox)

I feel that you've got a bit of gall to publicly post a rip off of a patented item. I feel it is irresponsible for you to do this.

(Getting down from soapbox)

I have posted pics and descriptions of my scraper plane, which is in essence a wooden copy of the Lee Valley scraper plane. I did not go into details, and did not show pics nor offer a description of how I did it.

Rob Lee himself had no problem with it, simply saying that making a copy of a patented item for your own personal use is fine, but advocating others to do the same, or selling the the productto someone else is where you can/will/should get into trouble.

Does Gifkin's actually make a box joint version of the jig in question? As far as I can see, no.

Besides, Mike there actually owns the Gifkins jig, several versions of it apparently, so modifying an existing design to create something that, at this moment in time, does not even exist.

Where is the problem here? :confused:

Mike, good job. Nice to see someone else using their noggin to come up with something rather than throwing cash at it.

I'll leave my thoughts there. I am not eloquent enough in the English language to present my true feelings sufficiently without resorting to language that might be considered offensive.

But that may change...

Mike

I think your jig is bloody wonderful. I might make a copy myself ('cause you don't cut fingerjoints by hand!).

Excellent!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hey, and I for one think it is a wonderful job as well!

I often get embroiled in (real and potential) ethical and copyright debates on other forums as a proponent for enforcement--and though I ain't a lawyer--don't see any problem ethically nor legally with this...selling it may be an issue regardless whether they make one or not.

Mike

Points taken from all (Schtoo if you have a problem, elequent or not, speak your mind). However, I feel there is some misunderstanding.

The soapbox season was in no way mean't as offensive towards Mike, and I don't think he took it that way. If you did Mike, I apologise.

Also, I wasn't refering to the comb Mike made, but the actual jig to carry/use it.

You can't tell me this is not essentialy an exact copy of Roger's jig, which is patented both here and in the US.

Schtoo said it himself:

Originally Posted by Schtoo

...but advocating others to do the same...

My feelings are that to show the pictures of the jig itself, it does exactly that.

I am sure your intensions Mike, are entirely ethical. What one creates for him or herself in thier own home is fine. Its just that if feel it went over that boundary.

Nice job Mike.
My workshop has quite a few jigs that I copied from photos on this site. But only the simple ones because I don't yet have sufficient time or patience these days to put that kind of effort in.

Good job, Mike.

Three or four years ago I was puzzling over the same thing and thought I could use the straight combs on the gifkins with a straight bit to make finger joints ... and even though the width of the combs are not the same as the spacing like in your jig, a specially sized bit like Rogers bits with the bearing a little wider than the cutter would do the job. (I know you'd have to reset the stop, not like in your jig, but that wouldn't make life too much more complicated) I suggested to Roger that this would be an easy addition if he got CarbiTool to just make another bearing guided bit.

Anyone who knows Roger knows that his jig doesn't work so well just by accident - it looks simple but it is very clever -the beauty of it for dovetails is how you can adjust the tightness of fit with his thin paper spacers. He had of course thought about using it for finger joints long before I had thought the same thing, but, so he told me, dismissed the idea at the time because in such a jig you have no mechanism for adjusting the tightness of fit.

On the other hand, Roger publishes (at not charge) a finger-jointing jig method for a table router on his web site. He uses it for making small hinges. Have a look at his website.

Qw

Originally Posted by gazaly

Points taken from all (Schtoo if you have a problem, elequent or not, speak your mind). However, I feel there is some misunderstanding.

I am sure your intensions Mike, are entirely ethical. What one creates for him or herself in thier own home is fine. Its just that if feel it went over that boundary.

Misunderstanding? Seems so...

I now see exactly where you were coming from gazaly, and while I don't 100% agree with your opinion on it, I can at least respect it now.

Previously, it looked like you were chewing Mike out for copying something, and I didn't quite see what was copied. I can now see it's the 'box' that holds it all together. Stoopid me doesn't own a Gifkin's jig, yet...

But, I still can't see the problem in using an existing design for one's own personal use, especially if you have a paid up original sitting right there to use as a guide. Posting it on a public forum, while treading a little dangerously maybe, doesn't really condone using it to everyone who sees it. Telling everyone to try it would be pushing it too far I think.

As for the speaking my mind, you don't really want me to do that here.

And by the looks of it, I may have regretted it anyway.

I just don't have a problem with a simple pic, nor using the design for your own use. Detailed pics or plans on how to copy it, that's stepping over the line in my opinion.

Which is why I posted a pic of my plane, but no more details. I won't even tell someone how I did it. If they want to do it, they can work it out themselves, I am not going to help them.

But on selling it, I'd help hunt someone down for that. Only because I have an idea that may or may not work, and if it does, I don't really want anyone stealing it. But if someone went to the effort of making their own homebrew version of it, good luck to them.

Just the way I am I guess.

Have a look at this - which is Roger's 2005 Newsletter. See the bottom of page three in column one. I spoke to Roger Gifkins at the Perth Wood Show in August about any new products and He advised that the Finger Joint kits are not far away from release.

I personnally would not bother making my own for two very good reasons:
- the Gifkins Products are just excellent, and,
- it's just about the last opportunity that I have to support a local Australian Inventor / manufacturer (and have fun at the same time). (Pity John 'Waterloo' Howard didn't spend more time doing so - instead of destroying our communications backbone.):eek::mad:

Interwood

Schtoo,

Thanks for your honesty. I also respect your, and all others on the forum, opinion.

Gazaly,
I have not used Rogers centre portion of his jig in my design, the centre portion is a jointed piece of 4x2 and i have used some of the T track from woodpeckers (http://www.woodpeckers.com.au/category4_1.htm). The sliding stop on the top is made from three off cuts of Jarrah thicknessed to 8mm, dovetailed using Roger's jig and a Knob 1/4-20 Thru 5 lobe also from woddpeckers (http://www.woodpeckers.com.au/category9_1.htm) with a 1/4 inch bolt from my local bolt supplier.

If you have no problem with the comb what objection do you have with the rest ?

Regards

Mike

A few points to ponder about the copying of ideas from others (read Gifkin).

They say imitation is a form of flattery. I believe this to be so. Look around this website, go through the various forums. Just how many have copied from others (isn't this why we share ideas on this forum?). Frankly, there is not a lot that is original going around. In someway we are influenced by others, and - possibly at best - modify the ideas and convert them to our own. The originality comes in the ability to synthesize ideas and blend them afresh. I'd like to think that this was my contribution in, for example, my Belt Sander Grinder Jig. Just which individual part could I call my own. Not much. There are an awful lot of router-powered and table-saw carried jigs on this site that are labled by the names of those that built and posted them here, but just visit other woodworking sites and you will likely find them there under someone else's name.

Lets give credit for creative thinking. For looking outside the circle. I think that Mike has done a terrific job blending ideas in his jig. His is a fresh look at an old problem using ideas from others, and it ends up being well-executed.

Regards from Perth

Derek