Thread: New Festool Circular (not plunge) saw with dedicated "reloading" guide rail

I suppose I'm a bit of a wet blanket, but frankly I'm underwhelmed.

Mafell have had this exact same system for quite a few years now. Exact in every detail that I can see on the video anyway!

Their KSS 300 (42mm), Corded & Cordless (36v) KSS 400's (55mm ea.) & KSS 80 (88mm) saws have already set the standard for integrated track crosscut saw systems.

I believe the KSS 400/36v saw will fit the new Bosch "Professional" batteries with Sanyo/Panasonic 6.0ah cells that can be fully charged in 10 minutes flat!

Yes they're expensive, but as they are generally regarded as "best in class" for site saws, at least you can see where your money is going.... The 900w, 1100w & 2300w respectively Cuprex motors are renowned for their power, reliability & longevity. Just the ticket for heavy duty site tools.

Festo have a very hard act to follow if they intend to start marketing site tools!

Yes, I'm just making the observation that they will be released soon.

Not qualified to comment one way or another.

As they're Festools I'm sure they'll be well designed. There's always room for improvement, even for supposed "class leaders" like Mafell. I expect Tooltechnic will have done a lot of expensive R&D to match or maybe better their rival.

As they're Festools I'm sure they'll be expensive too. Mafell are often (usually?) even more pricey!

Festool has always had better dust extraction than anybody: it's really at the "heart" of their whole tool system integration.

For (construction) site tools, however, dust extraction is pretty irrelevant.

But the main reason why Festool may find it tough is Mafell's reputation: just as Festool is to sanders, Metabo to drills & grinders, Bosch to SDS hammers & jigsaws & Makita to cordless tools, Mafell's own particular specialisation and success has been their range of Pendulum & Plunge saws.

Just discussing this and the Mafell saw with a friend. He would like to be able to see the cut from the motor side of the saw, and can't see that it is possible with either of them.

I did point out that if this was possible then it would probably affect the DE capability (no seal).

Any thoughts Ratty?

It's a bit of a perennial problem with pendulum saws. Tooltechnic used to (Narex/Protool) and Mafell still do produce a range of saws for general construction work. Unsure about the former, but the latter are also designed to fit the Bosch/Mafell AND the Festo/Metabo series of guide rails too.

They lack the ability to lock onto the short crosscut rails however, & obviously don't have the retraction facility (which is merely a short length of bungee anyway). They do have the additional ability to plunge, however (their riving knives are retractable & sprung loaded) & I believe depth preselection too.

I think the Krauts tend to be a whole lot more anal about dust extraction than we are. Personally I don't give a Tinker's cuss whether my jigsaw dust is sucked away or not, given how little is actually produced anyway, and find that some tools become almost unmanageable with a fat, stiff & (fairly) heavy hose fitted! As long as the blower works to clear the cutline: 30 secs. with a dustpan & broom will clear away any residual dust anyway. Circular saws are by their very nature messy buggers, but so is almost all other aspects of the construction industry too.

I know, I know. Sometimes dust just isn't allowed: one job I had was to suspend some extensive runs of cable tray over a General Hospital's servers, backup power units etc. that covered everything from the pawn-surfers (sic) in the attendants' lounge to the life support systems in the ICU! All old hardware & fittings had to be removed from the concrete ceilings, and new threaded rod sockets drilled & fitted & tray installed over all this hideously expensive & mission-critical hardware! Not a whiff of dust was allowed, lest it contaminate the fiber-optic interfaces, cooling units, hard-drives & all that palaver. Ice cream bucket inverted over the SDS bit; Fixing hammer in one hand, vac. spout in the other, whilst balanced on the very top of a 10' set of steps. Plus drop sheets over everything below that so much as looked important. All metal cutting (both grinder & snips) and drilling had to be done outside in the (working) hospital's corridor, lest metallic swarf or dust get in.

Nobody died.

As for sighting the blade from the left, well it's just something you work around. There's usually cut line indicators on the leading edge of a saw's shoe. Failing that, use the rail. That's what its for; to keep your cuts on track.

He's talking about situations where a rail can't be used for whatever reason - which I hope doesn't include "haven't got the time" - I know he doesn't like setting them up.

Hear what you say about the dust from a jig saw, and dust on site work. It's all about the invisible dust which is the most dangerous and ipso facto the easiest to ignore. ("I can't see any dust - must be clear" take off mask and inhale plenty of superfine dust that is able to penetrate further into the lung tissue than the visible dust).

Given how expensive these saws are going to be I just don't see any of them being all that successful in our market.

Ask a site carpenter to describe a "construction saw" & s/he'll talk about a 7 1/4" Makita or equivalent. The sort of saw that can take the harsh conditions of site work, and which won't cause undue grief if it grows legs on the worksite & disappears or maybe falls off the ridge board you were just trimming onto the slab below. Cutoff saws too are generally simple cheap non-sliding snip or docking saws that can mitre and bevel one way.

Bring a $1000-$1500+ circular saw on site and most people will think you're some sort of poseur, wa#ker or worse before sending for the white-coats to come & take you away.

Most chippies need a saw that is cheap, reliable, has readily available blades at any hardware store, and an extensive service & repair network for rapid turnaround. From my own perspective, now that my local repairer has had his account closed Festo don't have any repair facilities <250km or so away! Nobody earning a living from his or her tools can be without so critical and basic a tool as a saw for even a single day. Having to pack up & ship a tool to Hobart Town or the North Island for service & repair just won't work here in Tas, nor I suspect anywhere else in regional Australia.

They might be more appealing to "second fix" carpenters, but this market is already pretty well covered by the existing range of plunge saws from a variety of manufacturers. This seems to be Festool's particular strength where dust extraction makes much more sense: doing renovation trades in existing domestic & commercial premises.

Originally Posted by Ratbag

Given how expensive these saws are going to be I just don't see any of them being all that successful in our market.

Ask a site carpenter to describe a "construction saw" & s/he'll talk about a 7 1/4" Makita or equivalent. The sort of saw that can take the harsh conditions of site work, and which won't cause undue grief if it grows legs on the worksite & disappears or maybe falls off the ridge board you were just trimming onto the slab below. Cutoff saws too are generally simple cheap non-sliding snip or docking saws that can mitre and bevel one way.

Bring a $1000-$1500+ circular saw on site and most people will think you're some sort of poseur, wa#ker or worse before sending for the white-coats to come & take you away.

Most chippies need a saw that is cheap, reliable, has readily available blades at any hardware store, and an extensive service & repair network for rapid turnaround. From my own perspective, now that my local repairer has had his account closed Festo don't have any repair facilities <250km or so away! Nobody earning a living from his or her tools can be without so critical and basic a tool as a saw for even a single day. Having to pack up & ship a tool to Hobart Town or the North Island for service & repair just won't work here in Tas, nor I suspect anywhere else in regional Australia.

They might be more appealing to "second fix" carpenters, but this market is already pretty well covered by the existing range of plunge saws from a variety of manufacturers. This seems to be Festool's particular strength where dust extraction makes much more sense: doing renovation trades in existing domestic & commercial premises.

Without speaking specificity about any one tool type, I don’t agree with you in a number of respects about job-site tools.

You suggest the majority of tradesperson in Australia…

• Cannot hold their tools without dropping them as a matter of course.
• Cannot manage to keep track of his own tools or constantly has everything stolen, or don’t have insurance for their gear.
• Does not care about his own health (wrt dust) or those of his colleagues or employees.
• Cares more about what other tradies think of them than the job they are contracted to do.
• Cannot work out how to arrange their toolset to include a level of redundancy for critical tools, keep themselves in stock of critical consumables, or manage a bit of maintenance.
• Is so incompetent wrt the above he prefers to selects a lesser tool to one that can do a better job or save time.

I don’t this this is the case at all with the majority of well managed, organised, and careful tradespeople.

Well said Anthony.

LGS

Originally Posted by nt900

Without speaking specificity about any one tool type, I don’t agree with you in a number of respects about job-site tools.

You suggest the majority of tradesperson in Australia…

• Cannot hold their tools without dropping them as a matter of course.
• Cannot manage to keep track of his own tools or constantly has everything stolen, or don’t have insurance for their gear.
• Does not care about his own health (wrt dust) or those of his colleagues or employees.
• Cares more about what other tradies think of them than the job they are contracted to do.
• Cannot work out how to arrange their toolset to include a level of redundancy for critical tools, keep themselves in stock of critical consumables, or manage a bit of maintenance.
• Is so incompetent wrt the above he prefers to selects a lesser tool to one that can do a better job or save time.

I don’t this this is the case at all with the majority of well managed, organised, and careful tradespeople.

From my own perspective, one of the reasons I lashed out about $2000 to set my self up, was the amount of dust each cut of white laminate shelving produced and the amount of time and effort it took to get the garage respectively clean again.

Once I had my Festool plunge saw and dust extractor (Midi) (plus guide rail) I could work relatively dust free and my clean up time was dramatically reduced to the point that if it was only one or two cuts I may clean up at all, or just give the place a quick vacuum (with the dust extractor). The other big saving was the time it took to set up cuts and the ability to cut in a straight line.

When you are working in someone's home or office and need to cut a board (eg a floor board in a shop selling beads) the ability to do it inside without putting dust everywhere is extremely important! (Yes the client in the bead shop was impressed.)

Will I be running out to buy this new Festool saw - unlikely as I have learnt to do most things with what I have. Am I likely to use a saw without dust extraction yes, but only when the situation is suitable eg notching out fence posts or cutting scrap wood outside.
Do I regret spending money on what I have - NO! Pity I did not do it sooner.

My 20^c​ worth.

I won't be availing myself of this new saw ,I reckon I can cope with my abundant Festool menagerie to satisfy my needs.
I'm not a tradesman merely a retired bloke interested in cabinetry.

Therefore on his occasion I will NOT be the green eyed monster looking on whilst others can pontificate the where's and why fors, uses/costs ,I will leave that to the locals who may review this tool in an Australian environment!

Been a long time advocate of the Festool range of tools even as far back as the earlier Festo's ,the engineering in these tools are what I have deemed what I need after many a year putting up tools that would not last.Therefore on being invited by my local bloke to try the Festos all those years ago ,I have not considered the cost of replacement when the need arose.

On those folk interested in trying out this new saw I look forward to hearing of your views.

"You suggest the majority of tradesperson in Australia…
Cannot hold their tools without dropping them as a matter of course.
Cannot manage to keep track of his own tools or constantly has everything stolen, or don’t have insurance for their gear.
Does not care about his own health (wrt dust) or those of his colleagues or employees.
Cares more about what other tradies think of them than the job they are contracted to do.
Cannot work out how to arrange their toolset to include a level of redundancy for critical tools, keep themselves in stock of critical consumables, or manage a bit of maintenance.
Is so incompetent wrt the above he prefers to selects a lesser tool to one that can do a better job or save time."


Anthony, I suggest that you haven't been working on the same type of construction sites as me: what's your trade, and what sort of worksites?

Have you really NEVER had anything fall ever? Nobody "drops a tool as a matter of course", nevertheless they still fall. I've had tools fall from ladders and off roofs. I don't have 3 or 4 hands, nor enough room in my pockets or apron, not every tool has the benefit of a rafter hook, nor are lanyards safe to use with some tools. My point is that any tool used at height is at risk of damage: a less expensive tool will hurt the unfortunate owner's hip pocket less than a VERY expensive one.

Have you never, had anything of value stolen? Ever? Theft does occur. Construction trades use quite an arsenal of hand and power tools, some of which must remain immediately at hand, and some just "offsite" in a parked van, ute or trailer. Tools are stolen. Not necessarily onsite, but perhaps when the locked, floodlit, alarmed vehicle is left unattended. I'd repectfully suggest that the majority of construction tradesman will have had at least some of their tools stolen at some stage of their career. It's happened to me and to every other site tradesman I've known. To suggest otherwise is perhaps a little naive & trite. It's a sign of the times in which we live. I've also found that today's thieves seem to have developed rather sophisticated & selective tastes, ignoring cheaper tools like old B&D grinders, Makita & Husqvarna electric saws and instead targeting my Stihls, Festos, Metabos and Flukes.

Dust extraction can be an important OH&S consideration: sometimes it's mandatory, mostly it's advisable, sometimes it's unsafe. It can be hard enough scrambling over & around a top plate fixing scantling or trusses with an air hose, which is why cordless nailers have become de rigeur. To do so with a power cord AND vacuum hose on a saw would be unbearably slow & intolerably dangerous: most lower quality vacuum hoses are corrugated and catch seemingly on each and every arris (or which there are thousands) on a new build.

Most tradespeople I know, myself included, care a great deal about the impression they make in the workplace. To onesself, one's colleagues, and one's clients. The days of poor personal hygeine, innapropriate dress, uncouth behaviour , intolerant attitudes and slovenly workmanship have long gone. I've found that one's reputation tends to precede you in a fairly small place like Tasmania. It may be all very well to have a carefree, careless or even cavalier attitude about one's work as you seemingly advocate, but I've found that your reputation (and chances of additional work placements) are only as good as the overall presentation & standard of your last job. Maybe it's different for you? Perhaps even more pertinent is the assertion that you don't need expensive tools to perform simple tasks: high quality craftsmanship is within & from the operator, not the tool. So much so that the use on site of an absurdly elaborate or expensive suite of tools might call into question the user's competence.

Finally, how many tradesmen carry duplicates of their core tools? I'm literally gobsmacked to hear you advocate such nonsense. If a particular tool supplier can't or won't provide an adequate spares and repair network then why would anyone select their products over another who does supply adequate backup; irrespective of price? It doesn't make any sort of sense. Am I missing something here?

One of the largest construction companies in Tasmania was recently promised a 2 day turnaround for repair of one of their key workshop SCMS. The problem wasn't even diagnosed adequately within 2 days, and the saw was out of commission for almost a full week. It's probably sensible to anticipate certain redundancies and downtime within one's arsenal, but it can be extremely frustrating and costly to anticipate a supply & repair network's incompetencies. I guess they'll be duplicating that particular tool now!

It's interesting that you leap so readily to Festo's defense in particular. It's a common characteristic of many Festo fanboys. Maybe I'm a bit too much of a pragmatist. I've been using Festo's products for about 30 years now. Most have been good, some are great, some not so & some are just awful. The same as just about every other tool company's products I've ever owned or used.

I find the level of what could almost be deemed blinkered obsessive loyalty engendered in some users a bit unsettling. It certainly doesn't reflect my own personal experiences with the brand. How about yourself Anthony? Are you a true believer or a sceptic?

While reading your post I was going to respond to your comments with my own observations and experiences… until I got to the point where you say I “advocate such nonsense”. Can anyone have a different opinion to you without your resorting to unnecessary insults followed up with your usual rant about fanboys, blinkered loyalty, evil empire, etc. It’s getting really old now.

I'm not sure about others, but I prefer to engage in discussion without insults or a constant barrage of negativity on every Festool topic posted.

I have a neighbour who has worked in the construction industry all his working life and the tool theft rate if his stories are to be believed is very high. As usual the market will work out if there is a need for this saw but it looks tricky and that alone sells tools.