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Thread: New Festool ETS Sander
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11th April 2015, 08:52 PM #16Taking a break
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11th April 2015 08:52 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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11th April 2015, 10:25 PM #17
Rupes,Mirka all great sanders blah blah.
I suppose it would be more intelligent to buy all new sanding discs and a new hose and connections and probably a new vac as I don't think the Mira hose fits unless you want to make a boggyied up one which I've seen.
I think a lot of people will appreciate the new festool hose. Prior to this hose I don't think it takes any intelligence to check the old one.
Frank.
In trying to learn a little about everything,
you become masters of nothing.
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11th April 2015, 10:38 PM #18Taking a break
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The Mirka sander vac port is threaded and winds directly on to any standard 27mm hose; mine is happily connected to a Festool vac.
The hose checking comment was very tongue-in-cheek. As far as I can tell that's the only real 'feature' that Festool brings to the table.
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13th April 2015, 09:19 AM #19
I don't quite understand the logic behind the 36-27mm tapered hose. From what I have read about dust extraction the airflow is restricted by the minimum diameter orifice that the air passes through, and this would likely be the dust connection port on the sander (unless there are smaller diameters within the sander).
Surely then, the tapered hose would just cause the dust to slow down as it progresses through an enlarging diameter. Whether or not the larger diameter and tapering has any benefit in flow delivery would be for someone like BobL to comment on.
As for the jacket - that's really only needed for the first <1 metre of the hose coming out of the sander isn't it? In other words, long enough to cope with the furthest that you can reach across a board with a sharp edge so that it doesn't catch.
Personally I use a 36mm hose on the sander and I have a semi-permanent fitting on the sander so I can twist the hose onto it (and it doesn't slip off during use). Actually much more convenient than getting a 27mm hose connector over the ridges on the tool dust port. I have a 36-27mm step down connector but it's never used because of my preference. The semi-permanent fitting on the sander is a ~30mm length of 27mm hose with the inside piece of a 27mm connector screwed over the hose. Very conveniently the OD of that matches the ID of the 36mm hose connector for a tight fit. It looks like the fitting you can see on the OF 900 in the middle of this pic:
The fitting on the Domino is how I did it before I realised the convenient fit of that described above. That's just a 27mm connector with the end cut off, and a bit of gaff to take up the diameter difference. Works ok but not as "elegant" (for want of a better word) as a no-gaff solution.
All I have to remember when attaching or removing the hose is to do it with a slight anti-clockwise twist of the 36mm connector so I don't unscrew the internal bit off the hose. I think the hose may have been prone to coming off the dust port (with the weight of the hose) so I think I may have put a few spots of polyurethane glue in to stop that.
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13th April 2015, 09:48 AM #20
The other thing I wonder about is how necessary it is to have an anti-static hose inside a jacket. Wouldn't a non-AS be ok? After all, the jacket is going to get plenty dirty enough rubbing on the floor, and I would have thought that the anti-static would more or less be eliminated by the jacket except maybe where it's in direct contact with the hose.
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13th April 2015, 09:57 AM #21.
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There's nothing to worry about as the air speed in VC hoses is already so high that it doesn't matter if it slows down a bit and there's no danger of the dust settling out
The reason for chocking down the diameter of hoses is to increase air speed to catch more chips. Unfortunately this will be at the expense of catching less fine dust but at such small flow rates there's no way to do both. I can understand coin this on a saw or planer but why it is done on a sander if not clear,
With a nominal air flow of 100 CFM the nominal linear air speeds in various size hoses are as follows.
@ 27 mm the air speed is ~16000 fpm
@ 36 mm it's around 9000 FPM
@50 it's 4700
@100 , 1200
Large chips start to drop out of the air at around 4000 fpm so in theory VCs can use up to 50 mm flow paths with out any problems.
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13th April 2015, 10:11 AM #22
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13th April 2015, 10:42 AM #23.
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Yes indeed - in my calculations I assumed the flow rate stays the same which it will not if a restriction is added.
Even at VC pressures the flow rate drop in going from 36 to 27 mm will still be significant - see below.
But air speed is not a problem for a sander as the dust particle sizes generated will be quite small to invisible and will essentially still stay in suspension even at very low air speeds.
FWIW the max airflow on a FT vac is 3700 litre/min, so 130 CFM.
- with no hose
- clean filters and empty bags
- no restrictive connectors or tools attached
- no tool is touching any wood
- a fair wind and good looking blonde and a Campari at hand
As soon as these things kick in, the realistic air flows on VCs drop significantly
100 CFM for a is optimistic, a more realistic working flow rate will be something like 70 CFM
I have measured air flows as low as 30 CFM for VC attached to tools doing real work.
BTW, if the tool itself has a fan it can add considerably to the the air flow.
A clean empty 100 CFM VC attached to a sander using a short hose will drop to ~ 35 CFM with the sander turned off.
Now turn the sander on and the flow rate will be ~ 70 CFM
Some sanders have quite powerful fans. My Makita belt sander fair pumps out the air and so I can connect it to a low pressure system like a DC and it does a fair job of extracting dust PLUS I can leave a 6" port open to collect dust that escapes direct collection.
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13th April 2015, 11:09 AM #24
Just measured the port diameter on the previous ETS, and it's 20mm. I assume it's the same on the new one.
Also had a look at the jacketed hose and it's 27-20mm not 36-27 as I first thought.
So, to distil it down (and noting that the previously recommended hose was 27mm parallel):
- This 27mm tapered to 20mm at tool hose will increase air speed out of the tool dust port (if the port is larger than 20mm), and the dust will then slow to the normal 27mm dia speed
- This picks up more chips (which are not present in a sander) and less fine dust (which is present in a sander)
- However, the increased air speed from the 20mm end of the hose only maintains the speed of the air coming through the 20mm dust port anyway (i.e. no increased air speed within the sander where the initial pick up of dust occurs).
Therefore, this hose just maintains the speed of the dust for a while, after it has left the sander, before slowing to the usual speed.
If that is all correct then it's hard to see any benefit of the tapered hose in a sanding application, and my 36mm hose should be picking up more fine dust than either a 27mm or a 27-20 tapered hose. So in fact, the only thing that will make any difference to dust collection in this sanding situation is if the hose were to get smaller than 20mm (which would obviously be a detriment).
Is that right?
And yes, the sanders have internal fans.
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13th April 2015, 12:38 PM #25Retired
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Wouldnt it be the simple case that its "easier" to draw air through 3 or 5 metres of 36mm hose than it is 27? Even if the end is restricted to 20 or 27... the rest of the hose being bigger allows for more vacuum pressure to be applied at the restriction?
Make the vacuum machine labour less?
Im curious as I'm thinking of grabbing a 26 or 50mm hose.
Anti-Static is a necessity! Im sick of being zapped... ping ping zap zap... arrrgghhh!
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13th April 2015, 12:43 PM #26
Ev, I'm referring to the AS hose being inside a jacket, and therefore if that's any help to AS. It may be - I'm just not sure.
For some reason, static isn't a problem for me. My non-AS hoses don't seem to attract a lot of dust. Maybe my shoe soles are good, or the timber floor, dunno.
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15th April 2015, 08:41 PM #27GOLD MEMBER
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My friend is currently on a bit of a spending spree and kitting himself out with a whole range of tools. He's new to woodworking (I'm no expert either) and had some money from an inheritance that he was instructed to spend on fun stuff. Anyway, I have a couple of Festool tools, (TS55 & Delta Sander) and may have influenced him to believe that they are awesome tools. He already bought a Festool Dusty, the 2200 & 1010 routers and the better Kapex saw and is currently looking at sanders. So now to my question / the point of this post;
He is looking at the Festool Sanders, as I have in the past, and will likely go that route and get either an ETS 150/3 or this new ETS EC. He is leaning towards the ETS 150/3 as this new sander does not look to provide $300+ of advantages for an occasional user.
Looking at the specs, however, I am advising him that maybe he should be looking at a Bosch 125-150 AVE which has a 4mm orbit, better rpm range than the Festool 4,000-10,000 vs 4,500-12,500 (bosch), lower vibration by far; Festool 5.0 m/s^2 vs 2.5m/s^2 for the Bosch, more power 350w vs 400w (bosch) and from personal experience the bosch produces virtually zero dust so I can't see the Festool being noticeably better in this regard either and the Bosch is made in Switzerland not China / Malaysia. Price is $225 (bosch) vs $539 Festool or $830- for the EC (which also has 4.8m/s^2 vibration levels). Seems very hard to justify the Festool, regardless of price and particularly given the MASSIVE price difference. As a comparison, the price difference is only about $100- in the UK for the ETS 150/3 and Bosch 125 AVE which makes me feel that in Australia the Bosch is MUCH better value as well.
Has anyone used both the Bosch and Festool sanders? If so, aside from the joy of owning a Festool Brand tool, is there any real noticeable difference that makes the Festool better?
Sorry about the long winded post.
Cheers,
Dom
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15th April 2015, 08:45 PM #28Taking a break
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Can't comment on the Bosch, but I'd take the ETS 150/5 over the 150/3. You can finish with a 5mm orbit, but it's very hard to do rough sanding taking off large amounts of material with a 3mm orbit.
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15th April 2015, 09:21 PM #29
Recently bought the ETS 150/5 for a job.
Very happy with its performance, wiped the job down to remove residual dust after sanding with 4 or 5 grits. Not what I would consider an excessive amount, no visible dust when sanding.
I went with the Festool as I knew it would connect with my Festool Midi dust extractor and the systainer would stack and lock on to the Midi as a lot of my work is done away from home. At home the tool is neatly in the systainer with some abrasives and stacks on other Festool items so takes up no additional floor space.
Your friend may have different requirements.
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16th April 2015, 12:12 PM #30Retired
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The price difference makes it hard to justify doesn't it? Like FenceFurniture I do a lot of sanding and I've been hanging out for a 150mm sander for some time.
If what you say is true and if the Bosch connects up well to the Festool hose, I think they have a sale.
Festool did the wrong thing. I'm a huge fan and have almost everything they sell, but their recent policy of anti-competitive behaviour and Rolls Royce pricing reeks of absolute contempt.
I'll absolutely be checking out the GEX 125-150.
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