Thread: New Festool ETS Sander

Originally Posted by Ratbag

Here's another suggestion: there's a 150mm dia. "duo" sander from Metabo that takes both 6 hole & 9 hole abrasives (i.e. from every single possible manufacturer) that provides dual switchable orbital diameters. 2.8 & 6.2mm. It also offers variable speed, Euro manufacture, excellent balance & relative compactness and either dustbag or vac connections. The price is similar to that of the Bosch, and it's available in a cardboard box for economy or a Systainer for cashed-up neat-freaks & obsessives. It seems to be an ideally versatile machine suitable for both roughing & fine finishing.

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll have my friend look into the Metabo as well. I've seen them in shops before and they certainly have the look and feel of a quality tool (last Metabo sander I looked at was made in Germany as well I think).

I think that Festool make some really awesome and revolutionary tools and have a very well thought out "system" with all of their accessories but I just didn't want to feel like I'd convinced my friend to blindly buy Festool without considering other possibilities, and simply buy on the basis of the brand name.

Whilst I don't disagree with the reasons behind the fixed pricing of Festool in Australia, I think that this move, coupled with a huge increase in price, was a move that may have myself and others looking more closely at other brand products. Sorry, didn't mean to get this thread off topic. I initially just wanted some reasons to convince me why Festool Sanders (including the new ETS EC) and worth the money in Aus.

Cheers!

Originally Posted by DomAU

Whilst I don't disagree with the reasons behind the fixed pricing of Festool in Australia, I think that this move, coupled with a huge increase in price, was a move that may have myself and others looking more closely at other brand products. Sorry, didn't mean to get this thread off topic. I initially just wanted some reasons to convince me why Festool Sanders (including the new ETS EC) and worth the money in Aus.

I also don't want to take this thread too off-topic, but the prices of the top selling Festool tools came down in price, some like the KAPEX reduced to 2010 pricing. Much stayed he same, and some tools increased by a few $10's of dollars.

Originally Posted by nt900

I also don't want to take this thread too off-topic, but the prices of the top selling Festool tools came down in price, some like the KAPEX reduced to 2010 pricing. Much stayed he same, and some tools increased by a few $10's of dollars.

Sorry if I have it wrong with regard to pricing. I guess I must be comparing current prices to sale or discounted priced I'd seen prior to the change, rather than rrp perhaps. I do remember the Festool OF1400 router, for example, selling for around $900-$950 odd dollars prior to this month and now selling for $1115 mrp, which feels like a large increase as this was a tool I was looking at buying.

Like I said, I do agree / have no issue with the fixed rrp, as this allows dedicated Festool dealers to have extensive showrooms and not have people coming in, looking at the tools and then buying at a discount elsewhere that may not have the tools on display etc (effectively stealing the value-add provided by the other store).

Originally Posted by DomAU

Sorry if I have it wrong with regard to pricing. I guess I must be comparing current prices to sale or discounted priced I'd seen prior to the change, rather than rrp perhaps. I do remember the Festool OF1400 router, for example, selling for around $900-$950 odd dollars prior to this month and now selling for $1115 mrp, which feels like a large increase as this was a tool I was looking at buying.

Like I said, I do agree / have no issue with the fixed rrp, as this allows dedicated Festool dealers to have extensive showrooms and not have people coming in, looking at the tools and then buying at a discount elsewhere that may not have the tools on display etc (effectively stealing the value-add provided by the other store).

Fair enough. Some sale prices were really good prior to the changes this month. Depending on what products people were after, some were best to buy before, some after. I just wanted to jump in on a generalisation where I though some more detail could be added.

While I'm here I might as well give a point of view on the new ETS SC brushless sanders.

Although these new sanders are perfectly suited to woodworking, and could be used for all applications woodworkers currently use the regular ETS sanders for, the new EC models are very much designed for very high use users. For example automotive finishing shops... places that use sanders for 10 hours a day non-stop. This is where the improvements in size, weight, longevity, dust hose detection, new hose, etc really prove worthwhile.

For the less heavy user (many woodworkers) these new ETS EC features may not be as highly desired, which is why the EC models are not replacing the current models.

Festool generally make good tools. Some could even be described as excellent. Some, however are truly awful.

I'm distinctly unimpressed with their cordless range, with the possible exception of the 18v/36v cordless saw, which at least approaches Mafell's KSS400 36v quality. But I've personally found their drill range to be too gutless & slow to be taken seriously as trade tools. Yes they're getting better, but so is everyone else. But they seem to be 2 or even 3 years behind the others in terms of design, innovation and features.

Some sanders are excellent, but not necessarily without fault. Even their best (the big Rotex) has had problems with stripping plastic gears, and in the latest models with wearing bayonet fittings resulting in pad loss. The ETS sanders are highly regarded by users. So are their slot mortisers, with fanboys being particularly vocal in extolling their virtues and castigating any perceived criticism.

In general terms Festool's products are of dubious "value for money" to me, as their additional expense would require amortisation over hundreds of hours of operation. Any incremental intrinsic advantage over EQUIVALENT quality alternatives would be lost to the occasional user such as myself. As such I personally consider many of my own Festools' "value" to be probably about half to 2/3 their current selling price. If I worked full time within a professional indoor workshop however the situation would probably be reversed, in that their systems integration starts to make sense in this environment.

I don't, so it doesn't. My "trade" tools need to be more powerful, robust and better featured for site work.

Their pricing policies concern me most of all however. I believe (but may be misinformed) that the local branch is actually privately owned & not a subsidiary of Tooltechnic. If this is so then one cannot directly blame the parent for the sins of the sibling. Nevertheless after years of denial that either or both tiers of the organisation indulge in criminal activities such as Resale Price Maintenance, it has since been shown that such arrangements not only exist, but are now officially sanctioned in a cosy little exclusive arrangement with the ACCC! It may now lately have been made legal, but it's still just as morally indefensible as ever.

This type of anti-competitive behaviour displays an arrogant contempt of my rights as a consumer, not to mention the reasonable ethical standards expected of suppliers of goods & services in Australia. The current circumstances make it personally impossible for me to continue doing business with them. I hold myself to a higher standard than rewarding such behaviour.

Originally Posted by nt900

I also don't want to take this thread too off-topic, but the prices of the top selling Festool tools came down in price, some like the KAPEX reduced to 2010 pricing. Much stayed he same, and some tools increased by a few $10's of dollars.

Actually Anthony, at the current price of $1795 it's $55 less than the RRP in 2010 of $1850. I know this because that's when I bought mine.

Originally Posted by Ratbag

This type of anti-competitive behaviour displays an arrogant contempt of my rights as a consumer, not to mention the reasonable ethical standards expected of suppliers of goods & services in Australia.

I don't want to sound like I'm arguing, and I have literally zero motivation to defend the actions of Festool in Australia, but I find this topic very interesting. I believe that your point of view is only correct if you assume that Festool tools are so unique that there is no viable substitute available in Australia. I think that this isn't the case; there are many options eg. Bosch, Metabo, Makita etc etc. So if prices are too high customers will make a value for money decision and purchase a different brand of tool. It's not like they are the only supplier of a commodity like fuel where the consumer has minimal ability to find alternatives in the short term. Thus, if prices are too high, Festool Australia will not make many sales.

I think that we do over-pay for Festool products in Australia compared with some other countries. No doubt. But whether Festool tools are over-priced in Australia is a value decision each person will make individually.

I suppose that instead of a fixed retail price, the Festool distributor could have set the price for retailers differently, making the tools cheaper for stores that provided a better range of tools in stock and on display etc but then the result would be the same. I think that most people would be lying if they said they don't like going into a store that has a product on display, browsing all of the accessories and getting some info. I think that most people would also be reluctant to make a purchase at said store if they knew they could get the same (expensive) product for 10-20% less from another local source (even though the 10-20% premium is required to cover the cost of providing the value-add of having a good display and stock of tools etc). Thus, the store providing good, desirable, service would potentially go bust, leaving the consumer without a place to get hands-on with the tools and thus leading to both a poorer customer experience and less total sales for Festool.

All valid points Dom, but I still regard it as a right (by law in Australia) to request a discounted retail price. I still regard it as a right (by law in Australia) for a retailer to discount any retail price s/he deems fit.

I still regard it as morally indefensible for ANY supplier of ANY good or service in Australia to dictate a mandatory resale price to their retail chain.

I was once a retailer myself. In 1989 I acquired an interest in a small business (ragtrade) that traded in five small country towns. I lost said business, my life savings, and (almost) my house also in 1997. Trade was relatively good, turnover was excellent, but there was always pressure on margins, and crippling overheads. Despite buying, for example, Holeproof Explorer sox in lots of 100 gross (14400) at a time to get a good discount, I was still dramatically undersold by the local supermarkets: they would sell at less that my own cost price! But that's free trade. They probably bought said sox from Bonds in multiples of millions!

During my time in business I had an absolute gutfull of dictatorial supplier policies. The worst offenders were Adidas & Levi Strauss who took it upon themselves to tell me how to handle their product, under threat of withdrawal of supply.

This is probably why I have an abiding loathing and detestation of similar behaviour.

The final nail in the coffin for me was the State Gov't derestricting trading hours for big business, which meant my customer base could spend all day weekend shopping in larger regional cities rather than their local country towns. C'est la vie.

My point is that it's the customer's right to shop where & when they wish, and pay as much or as little as they wish. That's free trade, and yes it does have consequences. All 5 stores remain closed to this day, and their towns are the poorer for it.

Another consequence of this rather incestuous relationship with the ACCC is that NONE of my local retailers (<250km away) currently stock ANY new Festool product at all. It's now special order or nothing. Coincidence? You be the judge...

I still support free trade. The alternatives are totalitarian states and oligarchies. Sometimes both.

Yeah I kinda feel for the Festool retailers though. I know more than one that is "towing the company line" on the ACCC deal but quietly also wonder what not just stopping people from buying direct from Festool. Any warranty issues will still be handled by local support.

I wonder if we'll see any change in the frequency and quality of the promotions from Festool. Even Apple let retailers run the occasional 10% off sale...


I'm afraid I have to call you out on this baloney though:

Originally Posted by Ratbag

I'm distinctly unimpressed with their cordless range, with the possible exception of the 18v/36v cordless saw, which at least approaches Mafell's KSS400 36v quality. But I've personally found their drill range to be too gutless & slow to be taken seriously as trade tools. Yes they're getting better, but so is everyone else. But they seem to be 2 or even 3 years behind the others in terms of design, innovation and features.

I know its only your opinion, but to say they are not trade tools is surely a joke - which trade are you referring to? I can tell you unequivocally that the CXS is the finest cabinet installers drill I've ever used (my opinion) but I must not be in a trade . Have you even used any of them in the last year? The BHC 18 or the Quadrive units?

+1 to Mike's comments on cordless.
I've used drills from Makita, Hitachi, DeWalt, Panasonic, Metabo and Bosch and I'll take my Festools over them any day of the week.
Their FastFix system AFAIK is the ONLY one of its kind in the world and (again AFAIK) they were the first to introduce an electronic clutch that just stops the drill and beeps once the set torque is reached instead of the normal slip-clutch system (also never seen that on any other drill).

I don't know what curve you think they're behind, but I'd love you to tell us.

There seems to be varying comments on the drills/drivers. I have the PDC 18 (albeit with a Protool badge, but it's identical). It is a helluva drill. Stacks of power, quiet, smooth, and just feels like quality.

OTOH, I have a tradesman working here atm, and he is not at all surprised that the Ti 15 has been dropped, and is of the belief that the whole 15v range will go. We've been doing a bit of tool swapping so I gave him my Japanese (i.e. not Chinese) Makita Impact driver. He said it pretty much killed his Ti 15.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

There seems to be varying comments on the drills/drivers. I have the PDC 18 (albeit with a Protool badge, but it's identical). It is a helluva drill. Stacks of power, quiet, smooth, and just feels like quality.

OTOH, I have a tradesman working here atm, and he is not at all surprised that the Ti 15 has been dropped, and is of the belief that the whole 15v range will go. We've been doing a bit of tool swapping so I gave him my Japanese (i.e. not Chinese) Makita Impact driver. He said it pretty much killed his Ti 15.

Didn't know the TI15 was dropped. I like mine, but my line of work doesn't need massive 18v power. If they bring out an 18v impact driver I'd probably get it anyway though.

Originally Posted by elanjacobs

I don't know what curve you think they're behind, but I'd love you to tell us.

Well it did take them forever to incorporate LEDs into the drill/driver range, and when they finally did, it has to be manually turned on/off (at least on the PDC 18), and that is a right royal, and completely unnecessary PITA. The light itself is an excellent spread, but to not tool trigger it is crackers.

Took a helluva long time to release skins only too. There must be people out there that have 3-4 chargers.....
That seems to be coming good though.