Thread: Festool Market Strategy

Originally Posted by MrFixIt

To buy a modified biscuit joiner AKA the domino, I need to pay three to five times the price of a decent biscuit joiner, why? The biggest domino "kit" is about seven times the price of a capable biscuit joiner.

IMO this is hardly fair.

for an apples to apples comparison between a biscuit jointer and a Domino, you would need to be considering a Lamello jointer and Lamello's Zeta P2 system.

Though good at installing biscuits, Makita and DeWalt plate joiners are very limited in what they can do compared to a Lamello or Domino.

I think Festool have deprived themselves from a much larger market by having such high prices, that in my opinion cannot be justified by their tools, even though they are good.
Yes, I would like to possess some Festool products, *IF* I could justify the price,
snip
As I said before I have nothing against Festool other than their ridiculously high prices.

opinions on this differ.
When the Domino was first introduced I recall a commercial maker on these forums extolling the machine's virtues. For him it was a matter of productivity. The Domino allowed him to effectively double his output without engaging additional staff. In that light $1500 to $2000 for a kit is "nothing".

the price / productivity equation is different for amateurs.

I’ve owned a Makita biscuit jointer for nearly 30 years. It’s done an enormous amount of work. I’d still love a Domino as well. Can’t justify it sadly.

We sell other German tools in our business, price is always 50-200% more, I have been on dealer trips to Germany & China for various brands & can definitely tell you, that you definitely get what you pay for between the two regions. Quality of tools has dropped immensely due to the consumer demand for pricing, Makita 20years ago & many other brands where much different to today

Originally Posted by VEK TOOLS

We sell other German tools in our business, price is always 50-200% more, I have been on dealer trips to Germany & China for various brands & can definitely tell you, that you definitely get what you pay for between the two regions. Quality of tools has dropped immensely due to the consumer demand for pricing, Makita 20years ago & many other brands where much different to today

This is exactly why I'd rather Festool maintain their rrp, even up the prices if they need to, as I feel that quality is quickly becoming hard to find in our consumerist world. If retail price maintenance help them then that's great. I think that we all want cheaper prices but don't realise what we are losing in the process - and I'm talking both specifically to tools and more broadly in life. Try buying an appliance that is made to last more than 5 years these days!

Cheers, Dom

Also, on that note, I wasn't super happy with some aspects of my Festool HK85 - just didn't adjust as precisely as my TS55 for example - annoyingly so, and only recently realised they don't make this model in Germany. Not exactly hard evidence but another small indication/warning sign for me about the issues with trying to cut costs.

Cheers, Dom

But was it a flaw in the design or the manufacturing process?

Originally Posted by Lappa

But was it a flaw in the design or the manufacturing process?

I think manufacturing tolerances. Things bind up and it's frustrating to set depth of cut etc

Hk series is more a construction focussed saw, when your used to the precision of a joinery saw like the plunge saws there will be a difference. With the MRP pricing strategy it is accompanied by other end user features to ensure the consumer is better off like a satisfaction guarantee 30day return policy on festool purchase, added value bonus products & more specials campaigns, in the past there was only 2 campaigns covering a few months of the year. Now it’s almost all year round with different offers

Originally Posted by DomAU

I think manufacturing tolerances. Things bind up and it's frustrating to set depth of cut etc

Manufacturing tolerances are set during the design process, so it has nothing to do with the country of manufacture as far as I’m aware.

Originally Posted by Lappa

Manufacturing tolerances are set during the design process, so it has nothing to do with the country of manufacture as far as I’m aware.

Assuming you build to the tolerances. Setting tolerances is one thing - ensuring products are built to them is another.

Cheers, Dom

Originally Posted by ian

Very curious.

According to the ACCC's original determination it was "unauthorised" discounting by TWO dealers which led to Festool's application and the ACCC's approval of price fixing.
It looks like you might know at least one of those dealers.

I've always considered business about building relationships. Life too, for that matter. That takes trust, understanding and honour. Last time I ordered some bits & pieces from a local "new, full-service" supplier, I had to wait over THREE MONTHS for my order to arrive. After ringing to find out what's happening after about 6 weeks or so I was told that "I didn't do an order this month, as I didn't have the minimum amount needed" for something or other - free freight? Minimum purchase threshold? My own order alone was for about $5-600 odd @ retail, so this "imposed minimum" can't possibly be all that minimum after all.

Even then, I wasn't contacted at all when the bits & pieces eventually did arrive, & when I asked in person was told that they "didn't remember" my order but to "check on the shelves" where I found my 4 boxes of sandpaper (some sheets already missing) & 5 assorted replacement Duplex profile bases & scraper base amongst all the other assorted consumables for sale.

THIS is the "superior service" that I'm obliged to pay a premium for? I don't think so. I can usually source any consumable/s I want from just about anywhere in the world faster, with more courtesy and efficiency & much less expense too.

I can't even get my gear serviced locally any more, unless I source the requisite parts myself elsewhere beforehand! Otherwise it now has to be sent away, & is consequently out of service (& in the hands of uncommunicative strangers) for ludicrously extended periods of time. Honestly, why would you bother?

Originally Posted by Ratbag

I can't even get my gear serviced locally any more, unless I source the requisite parts myself elsewhere beforehand! Otherwise it now has to be sent away, & is consequently out of service (& in the hands of uncommunicative strangers) for ludicrously extended periods of time. Honestly, why would you bother?

you mean to live in Tasmania ?

The South Island of Oz.

Originally Posted by ian

IMO this is hardly fair.

for an apples to apples comparison between a biscuit jointer and a Domino, you would need to be considering a Lamello jointer and Lamello's Zeta P2 system.

Though good at installing biscuits, Makita and DeWalt plate joiners are very limited in what they can do compared to a Lamello or Domino.



opinions on this differ.
When the Domino was first introduced I recall a commercial maker on these forums extolling the machine's virtues. For him it was a matter of productivity. The Domino allowed him to effectively double his output without engaging additional staff. In that light $1500 to $2000 for a kit is "nothing".

the price / productivity equation is different for amateurs.

I'd have to agree with your comments Ian. The true (as much as it's possible like-for-like) competition isn't exactly inexpensive either:

https://www.axminster.co.uk/lamello-...er-case-506673

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mafell-D...thz4:rk:1:pf:0

Frankly, I'm not a huge fan of loose tenons. In the 1st instance I consider them a bit "lazy" if not a trifle "shoddy" as a genuine alternative to traditional jointing methods. My opinion only, of course. I concede that they're definitely a superior jointing method for synthetic & wood-substitute materials, but not necessarily more so than the alternatives (bix or dowels). The second objection, which is far more serious in my opinion, is that the maker basically has you metaphorically hogtied, bent over the workbench &.......... you can guess the rest.

At least biscuits are available from many alternative sources, & dowels even more so. You can even make your own! Plus dowels are stronger. Somebody cleverer than I actually took the time & energy to scientifically test the alternative jointing methods, with multi-dowel joints coming out on top for tension & shear failure tests.

Personally, I'd love a Mafell. To me, it's easily the pick of the crop. Whilst it definitely doesn't have the sophisticated knock-down & other post-formed manipulative versatility of the ubiquitous biscuit and its clever Lamello permutations, it easily & comprehensively trumps all the rest on "software" (consumable/s) cost & availability.