Thread: How much would you pay for 2nd hand festool ?

If the tool is still within its warranty period I believe the Festool warranty is transferable if the tool was registered when purchased..

I have a number of second hand Festools that I buy as they fall into my price range more readily and still perform as well. None of them have let me down yet.

I Agree with Groggy. I also have a number of pre loved fetool machines and have not had any trouble. Over time the prices paid vary between half retail and more than 3/4 of full price. Occasionally some people pay more than retail. Must be the thrill of the chase.

The big thing I think is how extensively the tools have been used. If its been with a hobbyist with very light use, 3/4 price would be a bit of a bargain because it should last just as long as a brand new one. If it belonged to a tradie, then I would pay a lot less.

Its almost a bit like me asking how much would you pay for a particular good bottle of wine....who's to say you think its a good bottle......you have to make your own determination of value.....
Like the above comments, if the tool is in good nic then I would be happy with up to 75% of retail, anything above this I would rather pay retail. Cheers!!

Originally Posted by TP1

The big thing I think is how extensively the tools have been used. If its been with a hobbyist with very light use, 3/4 price would be a bit of a bargain because it should last just as long as a brand new one. If it belonged to a tradie, then I would pay a lot less.

As it was with this Festool in fact less than 75% of RRP.

FESTOOL OF1010 EBQ-PLUS. RRP$750.00 + 2 YEAR WARRANTY - eBay, Other, Hardware, Industrial. (end time 02-Feb-10 18:50:21 AEDST)

Cheers

Imagine a slightly used Festool with 25% off RRP in a shop window. A regular tool shop, where you could ask a live person to hold the tool and inspect it from all angles before you decide. A fixed address where you could come back to, to have a reasonable complaint looked into and settled. And imagine the shopkeeper writing the offer price in bold red marker typeface, with a tiny line of smallprint underneath, reading "no warranty". Upon reading that, would you step into the shop and buy this Festool? I wouldn't. In present economic times, a customer displaying cash money and a willingness to spend it right there and then, is able to negociate a rebate of 5 to 10% off RRP in many shops anyway. So i find 25% not good enough to forsake a warranty, even if the product quality would make the risk small.

Auction sellers not offering warranty do -alas- have a point. The auction buyer doesn't know the auction seller and his motivations, but the same can be said for the other way around. There are auction buyers who wreck a tool or try to use it on some filthy job for free and then try to get their money back on accounts of the tool being faulty or the seller having given a dubious presentation of it. I've had the pleasure with such types myself. That's why sellers often try to avoid vouching for any warranty themselves, even if they would be certain that there's nothing wrong with the tool.
Buyers, from their side of the story, don't know the intentions and motivations of sellers either. The way in which the item was obtained by the seller, and his reasons for selling it, may also be vague. The seller lives far away, you'll probably never see him in your entire life. All you have to go on is a few pictures, a description you hope is honest and accurate, and a feedback score for you to check on the seller's track record of keeping his promises. And then there is the capability (or lack of it) to properly pack an item so that it may survive shipment to your doorstep in one piece.

So, if buying a used tool without warranty already sounds dubious when the sales channel is a proper shop, add the additional risks from the auction principle and the 25% rebate looks less attractive yet again. Also consider the greed and urgency aspects of an auction system. Closing bids can be unnaturally high when the sound mind of competing bidders is clouded by a "must have" they are not willing to let go of.
Just imagine, the sense of having something desirable, so near and urgent because this moment will never come back, snatched away from you the last second through someone else's simple mouseclick. Had it been for these lousy two extra dollars you weren't prepared to cough up, this simple click and the won item could have been yours. Now there's a nice letdown for a pumped-up hunter-gatherer ego. From 2002 on i've bought some 500 tools through Ebay and i fully admit that some of my bids were irresponsibly high, just because of greed and hating to miss out. I must count myself lucky that in many cases the closing bid was not as high as the amount i entered. So auctions may not necessarily present reliable statistics data; especially when wannahave-brands like Festool are concerned.

Still, your observation is right. I've read many times in this forum that the aviliability of quality European tool brands leaves a bit to be desired in the Australasian region. So with Festool's import, distribution and dealership in better shape than that of its German competitors, you'd think that this exclusive availability in your part of the world was a good reason for the brand's popularity and stiff pricing tactics. But you see the tendency of prices up to 75% of RRP for used Festools here in Europe as well. Even on Ebay Germany, where there is such huge competition of quality tool brands! So there must be something else going on. Many people worldwide seem to think that the Festool brand offers enough return value for such high price levels, even in second-hand state. And if those people are your competitors during auctions, you either go along with the "going price levels" when you want to win anything, or bid lower and be sure to lose.

Do all these people, shelling out this much money for Festool, know what's inside a Festool? Do they know the difference as compared to other products and, if there is any, if it is worth more money and how much? I doubt it. Up to now i bought 48 Festo machines through shops and through auctions. During repairs and restoration i've seen more than 100 vintage and newer Festo tools from the inside, too, but i can't always put my finger on their "added value", because i know a dozen or more similarly good tool brands, including the insides of their products.
So i think some of the hype is caused by the brand popularity itself. I even think there is a similarity with brands like Ferrari. I love Ferrari's, and i can't afford a real one, so i bought their merchandise rubbish instead. Mugs, fancy scale models, calendars, scent, the works. I've even been to Francorchamps, waving a horsey flag, and i'm an adult 15 years away from my pension. None of this nonsense has anything to do with actual race car driving and still i squander money on it. So the brand does things between my ears and obviously clouds healthy common sense and i even like it. How does that work? Take for instance Skoda and Ferrari and suppose they both want to have a character perfume created for them. Something unique and catchy, imagine both firms ordering the best of perfume houses to compose a quality expression out of the best of ingredients. Ferrari can get away with asking 100 dollars for a bottle, but Skoda can't. Why? Because Skoda as a brand hasn't reached the same background value perception yet. Ferrari can claim 50 years of racing experience and can boast on a line of many technical achievements with few real duds and failures in between. That stands for something, that's real achievement. Skoda was good yet not wiely known as such and was only recently put up in the spotlight again as a serious brand, but Volkswagen quality had to help out to beef up the story. Ferrari milks its brand and legend for all it's worth, but can get away with it because there is consistent vintage substance and value present at the base. Ferrari's reputation is something that many other racing brands can't match, it's much more than just the horse legend and the bio of old Enzo.

Festo has a similar substance at its base. There are also Festool watches and radios and other trinkets, but only because the brand value behind it has grown reputable enough to cash in on it that way. When Albert Fezer and Gottlieb Stoll started in the 20's, they targeted professionals: furniture factories, car body and upholstery makers, prefab construction firms, project painters, carpenters workshops and interior decorators. They brought professional grade portable machines in a time where many production machines were stationary, and they made them with both compressed air and electric drive. Their machines were up to shift use, meaning they ran for most hours around the clock. That's a good way to earn brownie points in the reliability and trade popularity department any day. Even the name sounded right. Many German firms chose founder family names, so you would see names like Striffler, Haffner, Löser, Ackermann & Schmitt, Eugen Lutz, Karl M. Reich and Closs, Rauch & Schnizler, most of which didn't even sound a tiny bit snappy, like even Black & Decker does. So Eugen Lutz settled on Elu, Ackermann & Schmitt settled on product name Flex; Closs, Rauch & Schnizler chose Metabo, Reich chose HolzHer and Fezer and Stoll chose Festo. FeSto sounds snappy; better than StoFe. The German "Fest" stands for "feast" but also for "secure, certain, fixed, tight, rigid, solid". Both association aren't bad at all, they work in a favorable way inside people's memories. When Fezer left the firm to make stationary machines under his own name, Stoll was clever enough to leave the Festo brand unchanged. He recognised that it had gained an enormous market value; within a decade it had become synonimous with very durable and reliable machines. No other marketing effort can substitute a good reputation earned in years of consistently good practices. The brand logo changed from the 20's script style in black and white to the sans-serif typeface in black in the early 70's and in blue in the latter 80's. This blue was also to be seen on the first systainers, though the electric tools inside were black and green, a combination already known in the 50's. This was confusing and marketeers at Festo found out that the compressed air product line and the electrric tool line needed different approaches and an own identity. The Festo name in blue was to be used for the air line and black and green were to be used for the electric tool line. To enhance this, a risky name change was also carried out. Name changes are often resorted to after mergers or takeovers or restarts after bankrupcies, but Festo suffered little sales and popularity losses of the electric line after the name change into Festool. Buyers were forgiving because of the good reputation and soon accepted the name change when they were reassured about the unchanged quality. These decades worth of outstanding products with few duds in between, is something that the Festo brand has in common with other likewise reputable brands like Ferrari, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi, and so on. And because of this, Festo/Festool had also entered the world of image, where pure basic product quality is still a key component, but no longer the only component responsible for sales success.

I knew a carpenter who did most of it work with real hand tools. He was a real crafstman and looking at his workpieces could make you drool. He owned a DIY B&D drill that he used for decades. He took it apart every year and used it till it was worn. He wasn't concerned about tool image, all attention should be drawn to his work. That was where his pride was, that was what he was all about. I'm in facility management in the Amsterdam area, i've seen all sorts of tradesmen doing jobs in our offices, from complete rebuilding to small custom adjustments or repairs. Watching the project furniture makers is the best fun of all. They make custom designed reception desks and canteen layouts, from prefab components or from scratch on site. Their attitude is reflected in their tools, all spic and span and pristine, well maintained and adjusted, no-one else is allowed to touch them. These are artisans, they make beautiful products, i can watch the way they measure and prepare and actually work on things for hours. That's the world that Festool likes to be associated with. These are guys who are supposed to like all those nifty thingamijigs and who are the most likely candidates to take the most benefit of them. And there is indeed a high amount of brand loyalty among these guys. In most cases they don't have single Festo machines but they own several. The real free spirits dare stray away to other brands if the occasion or need arises. There are also staunch Mafell or Fein or Bosch fans, wanting nothing else. True, these are all quality brand tools, but the old carpenter's aloofness towards tool brands is rare nowadays. Tool brands have become an image thing as much as a functional choice. The guys using those brands often underline their personal attitude and choice with them, like others do with designer suits and A-brand trainers. Many Festool users like to be seen as knowledgeable and expert. They like to be taken serious in their trade and their choice of tools is meant to display that wish. The tools must look the part because they as a person want to look the part as well. Their tool choice must a professional help, but in more and more cases must also reflect their attitude toward professional values.
Like A-brand trainers not necessarily turning the wearer into a top athlete, you can also see wannabee craftsmen sporting Festool gear. They look the part, but 10 minutes of watching reveals that the tool's precision in more than a few cases makes up for the handler lacking it. That's also a strong point of Festool stuff; most morons can achieve decent results with them. Sometimes the wannabees also put their used tools in an auction. Rust, broken-off bits, cracks from falling down a scaffolding, battlescars rather than use marks and pipe fitter's wrench gnarls on adjustment nuts and knobs. What a waste.

So that's my opinion. Festool fetches stiff prices, even second hand, because many people think Festool products do enough good things for them to justify such price. If the whole world would be convinced otherwise, the price tag would look different. The good things may be optimal precision and pristine work results, but may also be in the line of image and personal statement, in which case there can be a different perception of "value". You may even see matching behaviour. A sense of greed and completeness may take hold of you. You have the Gucci suit, so you may also want the Gucci shoes and coat. And why not, pick up the hat as well, while on holiday. I've experienced such greed myself many times. I have Minolta SLR cameras and i wanted all those nice lenses too. I bought their digital body just before Minolta retreated into the copier niche, because choosing another brand meant having to get rid of all the expensive system glassware i had hoarded so lovingly. I feel this greed with tools also. I was so impressed with AEG and Fein, that i wanted more tools from AEG and Fein. The story repeated with Flex and Festo. It's just wanting it so much that it's looney. Luckily, it's not only so for hoarders/wannabees like me, but tradesmen and the finest craftsmen can also be inflicted with this bug. I spoke to many of them, it's really true. Finding that out was a huge consolation.
I'm not a 100% fraud and wannabee, however, i collect tools but also use them proper.

What i would pay for a used Festool? First i feel sorry for the guy needing to flog the OF shown above. This must hurt if his story is genuine, it certainly looks good and would be worth the asking price. But with all the trouble having to go through, i wouldn't buy it. I'd rather buy rare and beautifully preserved vintage Festo's, they can be vauluable in their own right. I'm starting to notice more and more competition over the years, it seems that the number of tool collectors is growing around the world.
My Ebay member name is "g3dm", in case you're curious about the things i buy. The grey Festo RTS sander is a good example. I already got a few of those, but this is the best example i came across yet. So the others will be sold and this one will be kept in the collection. In this way, there is steady improvement and i end up with pristine tool examples from all eras, from the 20's up to now.

My feedback score is 0% complaints. That's enough to convince most forgein sellers to export abroad to me, whereas they wouldn't have before i asked. I, too, check feedback. If less than 100% positive, i check up on the reasons. If it's from some unjust agony aunt, i don't care; if it's about not keeping promises, i skip the auction, even if i badly want the item. Any uncertainties i try to discuss beforehand, by sending question through mails. It's all about minimising risk. Often i can get sellers to provide some money-back promise, all because of my good auction reputation and quick reliable payment behaviour. That has often been good enough for me to substitue a missing warranty. Out of the more than 500 Ebay purchases, i must say that only 11 were below expected value. In only 3 cases i didn't get any goods after payment, and i sent the police after them because Ebay's legal intervention is only worth more than zilch in case of paying through their secure PayPal system. Poor packing and shoddy parcel service performance have caused many times more damage than poor item presentations for which i fell with open eyes. In general, the Ebay people i met were brilliant. The Germans are not only correct and very precise and thorough, they are also very nice and polite. The most trouble came from UK purchases, again because of shoddy shipment, although the people themselves were nice.

I would pay up to 75% for the old AT saw models or the RT sanders. Forgotten and stored brand new vintage machines as a rule come without warranty (naturally), but to me they are absolutely worth that risk. Like i said before, as a collector i'm biased and i may look at tools in a diferent way.
Modern Festool stuff like the belt sanders i already know from HolzHer. Their RRP is grossly overrated, these machines are good but not thát good. The newset router and sander and saw types look toocheap and plasticcy, i have often trouble in recognising their superior value over other brands. The Festo's from 15 years ago are better than the modern Festools. I bought a Festool palm sander for real use around the house, to find out later that the Milwaukee equivalent runs much better. So out goes the Festool. My urge to want all Festool machines is practically gone, as is the urge to have anything more Ferrari. Look at any auction and there is always a corner somewhere with Ferrari merchandise collections desperately seeking new owners. So that brand has stopped working between my ears like it used to, though i still like the cars themselves, as i still like the vintage Festo's. There's not so much constructional and component difference anymore between nowaday's tool brands.

Much of Festool loving Australia will be all over me after reading this, i guess. Fire away, that's what i wrote this for, haha!

greetings

gerhard

Gerhard, I would be surprised if many people disagreed with your observation about some Festool products being overpriced. Still, that company markets its products with the same strategy that so many other German companies appear to do. - Provide high quality products and strictly control distribution and pricing. As far as retail price fixing goes, this is illegal in Australia and Festool fell foul of the law here a couple of years ago.

They do not do that now but the way they ( and many other companies) provide product margin for dealers through complex rebate structures means that discounting opportunities will be limited. Still, people, including me at times, end up buying the products because they still may be the best around. In any event, pricing a product is only about finding a level what people are prepared to pay and therefore while there is demand at the set price points, the prices will stay.

I too am disappointed with the small Festool RO sander, all things considered. It has stopped jumping all over the place but it is still not as smooth and as well designed ergonomically as my Bosch RO.

Now I am considering a decent belt sander and Festool is under consideration. I usually do damage with my current sander (GMC) so a sander with a frame which is capable of accuracy should help me a lot. Trouble is, I can't think of any other sander that fits the bill.

Hi TP,

there are indeed very few alternatives for the 75-model sander including its frame. You could shop for the same sander plus frame sold by brands who had the identical machine model made (HolzHer, AEG, Milwaukee, Atlas-Copco or Metabo) but with these brands being rare, it would mean import costs from someplace else, which would probably paying more than buying the Festool alternative right away. The large Makita and Hitachi belt sanders are good alternatives, but i wonder if frames for those are available.

In the mean time, the above mentioned seller of the OF router contacted me. His reason for selling tools to save for money for purchasing a house proved to be very true indeed. I felt a real dumbass for having questioned the sincerety of his explanation, even if it was for reasons of pointing out that ebay seller stories are not always clear or accurate. I apologised to him and i again do so now in front of all the readers. Fortunately he felt no offence and agreed that indeed auction stories can alas not always be believed. Still, it teaches me to be more careful with my ranting vocabulary and to watch my manners.
I wish this sporting and friendly man the very best of luck in his new home and hope that he can soon buy new tools after all those expensive home investments are behind him!

greetings

gerhard

I agree with Gerhards fisrt paragraph - weigh up the risks & 25% is too little for me. I would not consider 2nd hand unless the savings were at least 50%, unless the tool was new or still had 12 months transferable manufacturer waranty. However many people disagree & so keep 2nd hand prices high. I have posted elsewhere about the high resale of other premium tools - eg Lie Nielsen, Bridge City, Veitas etc. I constantly monitor eBay, but am unwilling to buy an unknown quality 2nd hand tool that goes for maybe a $20 disount to brand new, when for taht $20 or so I can get it brand new with full vendor backing. In some cases people even bid above RRP. Ocasionaly you can get a bargain, but not often.

The up-side is this - when we buy new, we are pretty confident that if worse comes to worse we can get a large amount of our money back. In the case of premium hand tools, it is likely with inflation that, with time, we might in fact get more than the original purchase price. And with some limited edition tools, these can become a true investment. (Not that I would willingly part with my tools!!)

For those starting out in woodwork as a hobby, if you have the cash you may well do better to buy premium tools up front. If you give it up, you will get most of your outlay back & will have had the pleasure of using great tools in the interim. If you buy cheaper tools (even quite good quality tradesman grade) you will be lucky to get anything back - write it off! And if you stay with your hobby, you will have not wasted the money on inferior tools that will be junked when you eventually feel the need to upgrade (& most do eventually get hooked on great tools). Trades people have a different set of drivers & cost considerations come into play. However it is interesting to see that the people at the top of their game seem to use premium power & hand tools - quality pays. Great Festool reliability, warranty & service on top of the quailty of work produced from the tools indicates that the high prices are justified.