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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    Redlands area, Brisbane
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    Angry When is a square not a square?

    When it is branded Festool...

    First up, it is entirely my fault for not checking it first; but when you get charged Starrett prices, it is not entirely unreasonable to expect a square to be actually square.

    I bought an FS90 (FS 90 Degree Guide Rail Square) for the guide rail system because I wanted to cut square panels. Sounds reasonable except that the edge that matters is not actually square to the reference. The one that does not matter is square to it.

    Then there is the matter of the Festool TS55 saw and setting it square and at 45 degrees. Oh my! For such an expensive item that is the flimsiest weak excuse of an adjustment mechanism. I was expecting that I would have to adjust it and set it once and forget it; but with this sorry POS design, settings are only a suggestion. There is no way I would feel confident that it would be correct and set the same the next time I took it out of the box.

    I bought this system to avoid having to man-handle heavy solid timber panels by myself across a smallish panel saw; and I can afford the item. If it all worked as well as advertised I would have been reasonably content.

    Festool talks a big game...

    I'm strongly inclined to return the whole lot at the moment but I will try exchanging the FS90 first and see if that solves that problem. Mind you, I will be checking with a Starrett square in the store first!




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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    se Melbourne
    Age
    62
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    Default

    I am interested in this. Let us know how you get on.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Melbourne
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    Default

    It's a shame you're having some problems there. Definitely take it back to the store for suitable resolutions.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In between houses
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    I think you’ll find Festool will be very accomodating helping you sort this out. Their products are always excellent, and in my 35 or more years in dealing with them, I have found their customer service to be without equal. Just make sure you’re using the unit exactly as they stipulate, in the book and on the instructional videos, more than likely, you will find the issue yourself.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sydney
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    650

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    Sorry to hear Mark, but I'm a bit confused.

    When you say "the edge that matters is not actually square to the reference. The one that does not matter is square to it." What do you mean? I have one of these and although I don't think I have made a cut with it, i seem to remember putting it on the track and checking it and it was square.

    Maybe ill give it a test cut tomorrow and see.


  7. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Redlands area, Brisbane
    Posts
    1,489

    Default

    I went to Carbatec (who are just super helpful) today to see about exchanging the item. A new box was opened in front of me and it is defective in the exact same way as the example I took delivery of. I wasn't going to ask them to open multiples of these given it was the exact same defect in the exact same degree of magnitude. This was tested using my Starrett square and another square that the Carbatec team had. My Starrett square checks against a DIN certified reference square.

    Considering my purchase of this whole system was about saving time and aggravation, any advantage I might have got has been well and truly dissipated by the hassle, so far!

    I didn't take the whole kit with me today as I was hoping to have this resolved by exchanging the one item; so the matter is still unresolved. I have decided to return the whole lot next week. Close to a couple of thousand dollars worth of kit.

    I have no doubt I could file a square edge on the tool and fix it but I frankly cannot be arsed faffing about with it.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Redlands area, Brisbane
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanesmith80 View Post
    Sorry to hear Mark, but I'm a bit confused.

    When you say "the edge that matters is not actually square to the reference. The one that does not matter is square to it." What do you mean? I have one of these and although I don't think I have made a cut with it, i seem to remember putting it on the track and checking it and it was square.

    Maybe ill give it a test cut tomorrow and see.

    Slight correction to my earlier statement...

    The edge that sits against the back edge (i.e. the side opposite the blade of the track saw) of the track is not perpendicular to the edge that rests against the workpiece. Both edges that can be used to reference against a workpiece ARE parallel. That is, they are both wrong. Just oppositely so as they are parallel.

    I had thought they were not parallel yesterday.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    melbourne australia
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    2,621

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    Quote Originally Posted by markharrison View Post
    Sounds reasonable except that the edge that matters is not actually square to the reference.
    How far out of square is it? How many millimetres over the width of a 1200mm panel? Just telling us it isn't as square as your Starrett doesn't tell the full story.


    Quote Originally Posted by markharrison View Post
    I was expecting that I would have to adjust it and set it once and forget it; but with this sorry POS design, settings are only a suggestion.
    Is this your experience, or just your opinion based on looking at it? I've had no problems with mine.

  10. #9
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    Nov 2004
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    Redlands area, Brisbane
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack620 View Post
    How far out of square is it? How many millimetres over the width of a 1200mm panel? Just telling us it isn't as square as your Starrett doesn't tell the full story.
    .7mm over 200mm. As this is a linear progression, you can work the rest out for yourself.

    Some photos. Against the cut edge, you can see the track is perfectly parallel...

    IMG_0158.jpeg

    Track adjusted for actually square...

    IMG_0162.jpeg

    Close up of track against the cut edge when adjusted for squareness...

    IMG_0160.jpeg

    If you're satisfied with that, we operate to different standards.

    The panel is 26mm FJ Beech. The cut is a mitre. This is to be a mitred cabinet box using dominoes to join the mitred segments.

    Quote Originally Posted by jack620 View Post
    Is this your experience, or just your opinion based on looking at it? I've had no problems with mine.
    It goes without saying on any power tool; don't trust the angle scale. I'm not holding that one against FT as these are almost never good enough for anything other than a rough guide. Though at this price; they probably should be.

    The problem is that once you get the blade set at the correct angle, you can't (or I have not found a way) to set the index slot washer thingy against the stop because there are parts of the mechanism in the way preventing you from adequately snugging down the fasteners to prevent movement. So you end up just jiggling it around and testing until you eventually get it right by accident. That last part is a guess. I've not got it right so far so I've just bypassed the whole angle setting mechanism and checked against the actual cut until I got it right.

    If you have a deterministic method of setting the stops, I'm open to suggestions. I've searched the internet but not found anyone that has a deterministic repeatable method to do this. Questions asked in the FT forums (that I have found) end up with some passive-aggressive jerk putting down the person asking the question. I stopped looking in there for answers. I have enough passive-aggressive jerks to deal with in real life. I don't need to go looking for more.

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
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    Hi Mark. There are a few items in play here, the Festool square, the rail, the saw and the timber, your reference square/s. Can I try and eliminate or focus down to the offending item/s? Starting with... Have you put a square on the connected Festool Square/Rail? Does it show as square? Thanks.

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Hunter Valley
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    56
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    Quote Originally Posted by markharrison View Post
    Some photos. Against the cut edge, you can see the track is perfectly parallel...
    I am sure I am missing something, but I wish to double check please - when you hold the Festool track and rail square on a panel of timber you have purchased, and align the rail square against the top of the panel, the track is not at 90 degrees, which is verified by the fact that the track does not align to the side edge of the panel?

    If my interpretation is correct, then I must ask - has the panel being used been checked for squareness?

    I use a TSO Products GRS-16 on my Festool tracks - it's essentially the same tool. Of course, not manufactured by Festool, so I can't comment on the particular unit/model you have - but my GRS-16 has not been found to be out of square when used, hence I am just making sure I both understand correctly, and that there isn't something else "at play" here.

    Reason I ask is because I was going to add one of the Festool units to my tool kit, but would avoid if this type of issue exists.

  13. #12
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    Jun 2003
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    Melbourne
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Man View Post
    ....I use a TSO Products GRS-16 on my Festool tracks - it's essentially the same tool. Of course, not manufactured by Festool....
    I can't confirm this for sure, but I expect Festool have TSO make this square for them, as Festool's square has the TSO logo on the clamp and it looks identical to TSO's GRS-16 apart from the finish and colour scheme.

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    melbourne australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by markharrison View Post
    .7mm over 200mm.
    That's a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by markharrison View Post
    If you're satisfied with that, we operate to different standards.
    .
    .
    I have enough passive-aggressive jerks to deal with in real life.
    Perhaps some of their PA behaviour has rubbed off on you.

  15. #14
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    Nov 2004
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    Redlands area, Brisbane
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    Quote Originally Posted by nt900 View Post
    Hi Mark. There are a few items in play here, the Festool square, the rail, the saw and the timber, your reference square/s. Can I try and eliminate or focus down to the offending item/s? Starting with... Have you put a square on the connected Festool Square/Rail? Does it show as square? Thanks.
    No it doesn't.

  16. #15
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    Nov 2004
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    Redlands area, Brisbane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Man View Post
    I am sure I am missing something, but I wish to double check please - when you hold the Festool track and rail square on a panel of timber you have purchased, and align the rail square against the top of the panel, the track is not at 90 degrees, which is verified by the fact that the track does not align to the side edge of the panel?
    That cut was made with the setup shown. That is why it is exactly parallel with the off square setup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Man View Post
    I use a TSO Products GRS-16 on my Festool tracks - it's essentially the same tool. Of course, not manufactured by Festool, so I can't comment on the particular unit/model you have - but my GRS-16 has not been found to be out of square when used, hence I am just making sure I both understand correctly, and that there isn't something else "at play" here.

    Reason I ask is because I was going to add one of the Festool units to my tool kit, but would avoid if this type of issue exists.
    When I looked today I noticed that the FS90 track clamp has a TSO logo on it. First time I noticed this. I would guess that the whole item is made for Festool by TSO. I have found references to out of square TSO track squares so maybe that is the source of the problem. Still rubbish but it does take some of the criticism off Festool directly.

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