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21st October 2013, 09:33 PM #1Senior Member
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1" button dies going to metric sizes?
I've just bought a Suttons 1" button die, 10mm x 1.25 and I notice that the OD is 24.9mm x 9mm rather than 25.4mm x 9.52mm (1" x 3/8").
Out of curiosity is that a metric button die thing, a Suttons thing, a new standard for 1" button dies, something else?
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21st October 2013 09:33 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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21st October 2013, 10:51 PM #2GOLD MEMBER
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I would say it's the new metric thing. Won't make any difference on using it, but it will be a tad easier to get out of the holder
Kryn
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22nd October 2013, 05:23 PM #3Won't make any difference on using it, but it will be a tad easier to get out of the holder
Dean
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22nd October 2013, 06:24 PM #4
When a manufacturer does something like that ,you automatically ask yourself why.
Its a not a minor thing to change a standard size and it says to me that the dies are no longer made here in Australia.
Why do I think that. Well, I measured my cheapy ( made in China ) Machinery House tap and die set and lo and behold, the diameter of the button dies were 24.9.
I suspect Sutton were forced by the Chinese to accept a new (to Australians ) manufacturing standard.
Its not good news for me with a heap of 25.4mm (1") die wrenches. Looks like that in the future, I'll buy off someone who sells inch standard dies.
Remember Suttons input on the buy Australia campaign." Buy Australian made" or cut me out of a job.
Buy Frost drills - a Sutton bottom end brand - and do exactly that, they are made in China. I purchased them thinking the drills were an Oz made product.
Now I suspect the same is happening to the button die manufacture. Please tell me it is not so.
I am not a cheap rrs, I don't mind paying for good quality.
Rant over
Grahame
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22nd October 2013, 09:39 PM #5
My good Dormer dies are all either 13/16" or 1". The cheap ones i have from CTC (M3 and M4 i think) are 20mm dia......
The Dormers cut steel like it is made of butter. The CTC's cut steel like it is made of....steel.
Ew1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.
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22nd October 2013, 10:45 PM #6Cba
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I grew up in Europe. Over there, button dies always had a metric outer diameter (like 16, 20, 25, 30, 38, 45mm etc). Not only for metric dies, but also UNC, UNF, Withworth etc etc. After all, you want to use the same set of wrenches for all dies.
The Brits and the Americans made their dies with imperial outer diameters. As the Brits gradually changed to metric some 30 years ago, they did not want to toss away all their imperial die wrenches. So they kept making dies with imperial outer diameter. However, there comes a point in time where makers in the UK (or Australia) simply loose being competitive in export markets if they do not go the transition to metric the full way. Think about it, why should a customer from continental Europe (or Japan or Russia or almost any other country....) want to buy a British made die with imperial outer diameter, that does not fit into a standard metric die holder? Life is hard enough with all the different thread pitches there are, surely we can in our lifetime at least standardize the outer diameter of all these dies..... Chris
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22nd October 2013, 11:30 PM #7Senior Member
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Broke the die
Oldneweng, using a 24.9mm die in a 25.4m holder caused the die to snap at the grub screw. This is an adjustable die and therefore weaker than a non adjustable die. Always wise after the event of course, but the grub screw becomes a pressure point when the die is not a snug fit in its holder. Not that I was working the die hard, it was just doing the finishing on a thread I had already single pointed to 90/95% thread depth.
The good news is that I made a 24.9mm holder and fitted the 2 pieces of die into it. It all fits so snug you can hardly see the break and the die still works like a champ, it will get me through this job anyway.
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23rd October 2013, 09:50 AM #8
How very interesting. I always thought button dies were 1", so I just went out and checked mine.
Metric set I bought from one of those travelling tool vans (I was an apprentice at the time) about 1980 are hexagonal.
BSW set I bought from a hardware shop probably well before 1990 are 24.9MM
UNF/UNC (I had a need for one die so I bought a cheap set) from a cheap auto place this year really seem to be 25.0mm
Well, that surprised me a little, but obviously 24.9s have been in Australia in the cheap end of the market for a long time.
I don't ever really use the dies much, just for cleaning up threads and similar.
Regards
SWK
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23rd October 2013, 06:57 PM #9New Member
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button dies
Another idea is that the material that manufacturers use for their die stock maybe 25mm dia nominal so no outside dimensions are machined/ground.
Borriss
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