Thread: Advice on condition of new mill received - Titan TM25v

Originally Posted by Stustoys

It is? That would to be a first. I shell mark this day on the calendar!

Ok course there is always the chance it was blind luck.

Stuart

It's not all that hard to be clearer than me..

Looking at the rust on the lead screw, you'd doubt that's rusty enough to make it so hard to turn that it needs two hands, so your point about the gib being tightened up is a good one to check.

But if it's still tight with the table removed from the saddle it can't be the gibs, can it?

Ray

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the messages. I'm out at the F1 grand Prix today. So I'll do a quick reply now and something with more detailed when I get home tonight.

I removed the table from the mill as I wanted to further inspect the rest of the machine once I saw the rust on the lead screw. The X axis ways are not ideal with light rusting but they would be acceptable to me. It's really the X lead screw that irks me the most. I have yet to check the rest of the mill, but my first thought when I discovered the rust was to assess how bad it really was. So I may be striping it down depending on how unresponsive Stuart is at Titan.

Although it's my first mill. Im very familiar with my way around it as I work in RnD as a mechanical engineer and often have to speak to the machinist to get my designs made.

It's definitely frustrating buying a new mill and receiving it in this condition.

Originally Posted by Big Shed

As the above quote says it needs two hands to turn the screw so it points to a bit more than the mythical flight rust. If I bought a machine that needed two hands to trun it because of rust on it I would not accept it, and I would be surprised if you would Peter.

I'm not referring to the mythical flight rust, I'm referring to real rust as Machtool, Stu and a number of others who saw the machinery when it came out of the container from Singapore can verify. Much much worse than that.

Looking at the screw I have a real hard time believing that much (little) rust can bind the screw to the point it takes 2 hands to turn. I'd be looking for another problem as well. Which is why I'd pull the screw and clean it with a brass bristle brush, then lubricate it, then see how it was for play.

Anyway the screw is a potential issue, the very light rust stain on the table isn't IMO. Coolant stains are going to make that vanish really fast, if the mill gets used seriously.

I strongly doubt Titan actually inspects anything, they almost certainly just ship the box as received. That's not excusing them, just how it is when you're buying at pretty much bottom of the market. I don't think there's a hope of getting a replacement machine as IMO it doesn't appear to not be fit for purpose - precision cutting of metal - at this stage. If that screw isn't accurate, you've an arguable case for replacement screw & nut but not the entire machine.

Only way to guarantee getting a cosmetically perfect machine is to inspect it before paying the money. Only way to guarantee getting a machine that meets mechanical tolerances is to do some test cuts. Sad but that's reality. As I buy my tools to use, I can't get excited over minor cosmetic blemishes, I'm going to cause enough myself. If there was pitting, damage to the sliding ways or similar that affected function, I'd have a different opinion - which is why I'd be doing my best to check alignment etc.

As for buying a machine that's less than perfect, I got a good discount off of Hare & Forbes one time on a small turret mill I was buying for a friend because the table bound badly on one end of its travel. Turned out to be a misaligned screw bracket. Now if I'd bought it without trying the travels, I don't like my chances, but it was floor stock.

As has been said, if it's a real issue and it was paid for with a credit card, dispute the charge and tell Titan you're doing so - that should get their attention at least. But first go over the thing and see if it meets basic specification for a milling machine anyway, then decide what you want to do if it does, because those faults do not IMO constitute grounds for a replacement.

On that note I'll now ignore this topic as it's obvious there's no point in my following it further. Hope it all works out well, I can understand the disappointment in the machine not meeting expectation.

PDW

Originally Posted by PDW

Looking at the screw I have a real hard time believing that much (little) rust can bind the screw to the point it takes 2 hands to turn. I'd be looking for another problem as well. Which is why I'd pull the screw and clean it with a brass bristle brush, then lubricate it, then see how it was for play.

Anyway the screw is a potential issue, the very light rust stain on the table isn't IMO. Coolant stains are going to make that vanish really fast, if the mill gets used seriously.

I strongly doubt Titan actually inspects anything, they almost certainly just ship the box as received. That's not excusing them, just how it is when you're buying at pretty much bottom of the market. I don't think there's a hope of getting a replacement machine as IMO it doesn't appear to not be fit for purpose - precision cutting of metal - at this stage. If that screw isn't accurate, you've an arguable case for replacement screw & nut but not the entire machine.

Having re-read this thread several times. I think I may have jumped the gun a bit. I do actually tend to agree with you PDW with regards to the what I should be reasonably expecting the condition of the mill to be in when I receive it. I'm quite realistic these are exposed machine surfaces that are prone to rust. I bought the mill to learn, and I'm sure I'll be doing more damage to it over time than in its current condition.

Whilst the screw is what I'd consider major defect, I did plan to CNC this mill at a later stage so this may just prompt me to move that project forward to overcome that problem. The slight rust on the table and ways is only minor, and it's not bad enough for me to lose any sleep over. As I might have mentioned, most of it did clean up and is really only a cosmetic defect. Mechanically the rest of the machine is in good condition and I'm feeling some of that excitement when I first paid for it. I'm still amazed at how cheap the machine is when you consider all the castings, parts and machining work in it.

Stuart at Titan has replied me and kindly offered compensation and also to repair the leadscrews which I'm happy with. Thumbs up to him . I might have a go at this repair myself before I send it back to him. Does anyone have any tips on how to go about restoring this? I do have a 9x20 lathe and access to larger lathes at work. Perhaps a DIY electrolytic setup?

As a side note, I just wanted to thank everyone for their input on this. It certainly helped me think clearly with everyones opinions. Hope to start sharing some of my own projects on here and contributing back.

Since you already have it partially dismantled. start with a thourough clean,including the leadscrew. You will never get an appreciation of exactly what needs attention unless it's all clean. I get the impression it's mainly the leadscrew you are concerned with, I'd go with some steel wool and degreaser first. You may not even need to repair/replace it once it's clean.

Simon

I wouldn't be surprised if you lubricate the screw that it will turn easily, and if you run it back and forth, a lot of the rust will be removed.

On my TM20 the leadscrews have split nuts that are tightened with a screw to adjust backlash.

Hi


If they dont want to assist you.. I would say to them - "I am well known in the hobby machining field and I will spread the word about your business practices "

Hi TomZL,

How did you go?

I just bought one of these mills myself to eventually convert to CNC... I only pulled it out of the crate on the weekend and started going over it.

Im having a few "problems" too...

Did yours come with all the tools listed in the "manual"? Ie; I'm missing...

- 22mm-24mm double end spanner
- 3mm & 6mm Hex socket wrenches (Allen keys)
- 2 x M10 "T" Screws
- 2 x M10 Washers
- 2 x M10 Nuts



Also, what length is your drawbar? I can only "grab" half a thread on one of my R8 ER32 Collet chucks, the rest won't grab at all, ie I can't use any tooling or tram the machine or even check anything is straight :s I pulled the draw bar out and it measures ~192mm from the end of the thread to the "shoulder"?

The Z axis is sloppy as f$&@... Gibs are adjusted as well as possible but the play in the bearing is "huge" and getting 0.54mm backlash according to the dial. Any ideas? I can't see anything to adjust?

Cheers for any info!

Originally Posted by SkydivingSteve

Hi TomZL,

How did you go?

I just bought one of these mills myself to eventually convert to CNC... I only pulled it out of the crate on the weekend and started going over it.

Im having a few "problems" too...

Did yours come with all the tools listed in the "manual"? Ie; I'm missing...

- 22mm-24mm double end spanner
- 3mm & 6mm Hex socket wrenches (Allen keys)
- 2 x M10 "T" Screws
- 2 x M10 Washers
- 2 x M10 Nuts



Also, what length is your drawbar? I can only "grab" half a thread on one of my R8 ER32 Collet chucks, the rest won't grab at all, ie I can't use any tooling or tram the machine or even check anything is straight :s I pulled the draw bar out and it measures ~192mm from the end of the thread to the "shoulder"?

The Z axis is sloppy as f$&@... Gibs are adjusted as well as possible but the play in the bearing is "huge" and getting 0.54mm backlash according to the dial. Any ideas? I can't see anything to adjust?

Cheers for any info!

Hi there,

Is it the Z axis or the quill that has backlash? The backlash in Z is not really too much of a problem since you would normally adjust for best position and then lock. Then use the quill fine final height adjustment. Now, the quill will also have backlash. The combination of the poor fitting rack and pinion will produce an alarming amount of backlash. The affects of this can also be mitigated, to a point. A DRO on the quill is the biggest single improvement you can do, unless yours came with one as standard then you're good. This means you are measuring actual movement of the quill rather than relying on hand wheel rotations for position.

Welcome to the world of Chinese machinery!

Simon

Originally Posted by simonl

Hi there,

Is it the Z axis or the quill that has backlash? The backlash in Z is not really too much of a problem since you would normally adjust for best position and then lock. Then use the quill fine final height adjustment. Now, the quill will also have backlash. The combination of the poor fitting rack and pinion will produce an alarming amount of backlash. The affects of this can also be mitigated, to a point. A DRO on the quill is the biggest single improvement you can do, unless yours came with one as standard then you're good. This means you are measuring actual movement of the quill rather than relying on hand wheel rotations for position.

Welcome to the world of Chinese machinery!

Simon

Hi Simon,

It's the Z axis. I haven't checked the "accuracy" of the quill yet as I can't get any chucks or collets to stay or "thread up" in the spindle due to the drawbars lack of length :/ but it did come with a DRO for the quill, I just need to pull the face-plate, quill adjustment knob, etc off to change or install the/a battery.

I have ordered steppers, drivers, etc but I can't do anything at all without being able to make the brackets in "manual" first (which is my plan). Is there any "known" "specs sheet" or something that can tell me the exact length the drawbar should be? I will need to have one made if Titan doesn't send a new drawbar out soon... Need to get the machine making chips!!!

Not sure about the T screws etc missing as I am sure they should have been included for the "3 bolt "mod""?

Chinese machinery, yeah thank f)$& we're in Australia where "brand new" is still brand new and standards must still be met... A new machine should work and look like new out of the box no matter where it is from... Don't want to get too heated yet though :lol:

Cheers for the help!

Originally Posted by SkydivingSteve

Is there any "known" "specs sheet" or something that can tell me the exact length the drawbar should be? I will need to have one made if Titan doesn't send a new drawbar out soon...

Just buy a length of high tensile allthread, cut it to length and make chips. There's absolutely nothing special about a drawbar that you need to obsess over it. PDW

Check the spindle inside for a locating pin. The TM25 is supposed to have one (the TM20 doesn't). You may just need to rotate your collet correctly.

Otherwise can you give a bit more of a description of what is happening.

Out of the machine does the drawbar screw in to the collet? In the machine is it engaging the collet thread at all?

Originally Posted by PDW

Just buy a length of high tensile allthread, cut it to length and make chips. There's absolutely nothing special about a drawbar that you need to obsess over it. PDW

That should work for the time being. Loctite some nuts on the all thread and leave the capturing nut off. Cut the stock drawbar off at the shoulder, drill a hole in the centre, tap it to 7/16" 20TPI, screw in the all thread and TIG weld it in place. Bit of a pain but it will work at least

Thanks for the info!

Originally Posted by pippin88

Check the spindle inside for a locating pin. The TM25 is supposed to have one (the TM20 doesn't). You may just need to rotate your collet correctly.

Otherwise can you give a bit more of a description of what is happening.

Out of the machine does the drawbar screw in to the collet? In the machine is it engaging the collet thread at all?

I have checked for that "locating pin" but it doesn't seem to have one. All the collets/chucks/ER32/25/etc's I have have been going hard up to the spindle against the shoulder of the chucks etc and it just won't grab thread at all. The one that does only grabs half a thread, if that. Yes, the drawbar thread is the same thread as the chucks etc and does screw into them all when the drawbar is out of the machine. It's definitely the drawbar length is too short. I would say it is ~18mm short as that's the length of the thread that's on the drawbar which would give me ~18mm of thread to lock the chucks/collets etc with if that makes sense?

Thanks for the help!