Thread: Advice on condition of new mill received - Titan TM25v

Originally Posted by Hornetb

My Z column dovetail sides aren't parallel (ie. it is narrower in the middle like it has a waist-this happens because the middle of the dovetail on these machines is open - so the nut that moves the head can move up and down. Mine has simply warped after machining and closed into this vacant area-a major design flaw) so if you try to adjust the gib strip properly the head binds at the top and bottom of the travel and is loose in the middle.

Don't give up all hope - depending on how bad it is you may be able to machine it down to parallel and then scrape into a reasonable semblance of parallel.
Worth thinking about rather than adding to the world's artificial reef population.

Michael

Originally Posted by SkydivingSteve

.............. brand new one that he will personally check thoroughly before sending it out.

I will keep keep you all posted.

Thanks heaps for the help!

Steve

Titan used to claim on their web page, its probably 6 or 12 months since I last looked, that they thoroughly inspected and checked all machine tools before they were despatched, but that statement is no longer there.

I'm fairly sure they also used to claim they only bought from the better manufacturers and there may have been a Taiwanese reference as well.

Originally Posted by bob ward

Titan used to claim on their web page, its probably 6 or 12 months since I last looked, that they thoroughly inspected and checked all machine tools before they were despatched, but that statement is no longer there.

I'm fairly sure they also used to claim they only bought from the better manufacturers and there may have been a Taiwanese reference as well.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the reply.

From speaking to Stuart (Titan Machinery) directly over the phone he said that "it's old stock from a dodgy factory" he didn't mention that he checked the machine at all, I am sure he didn't or it would (should) have been sent back to China to be re smelted and not sold to any customer (hobbyist or "pro"). He did mention that there is new TM25V's coming in stock in 4 weeks from a better factory... I don't mind paying the extra $400 difference for the "new" mill as long as it's decent and not full of holes/casting defects and properly checked before sending it to me but I am not paying extra shipping for returning this one or for the replacement to be sent out. I've spent over $3000 AUD so far on R8 tooling, steppers, drivers, ballscrews, vices, etc (that's not including the mill and it's freight itself) to get this mill set up to start making parts etc for a new business venture I am starting. So much for supporting the local businesses though...

I am trying to get a replacement as I do need the machine, what concerns me though that when I bought it the description said;


(Quote) "MILLING MACHINE TM20VL brushless DC Motor(NEW!)


MILLING MACHINE TM20V


VARIABLE SPEED NOW WITH BRUSHLESS DC MOTOR!


Description


These TM20VL mills could possibly be the best small hobby milling machine we have seen here at TITAN MACHINERY .It has a variable speed BRUSHLESS DC motor that offer higher torque than normal brushed dc motors. Another sign of quality is adjustable tapered gibs not tiny adjustment screws (Tapered gibs are a must for a rigid machine!).There are no plastic handles on this mill only satin finished aluminium .Comes standard with digital depth gauge and self ejecting draw bar (no more whacking to get your tooling out).This would make a excellent mill for somebody that after a small heavier duty machine as it now come with steel gears in the head small increase in noise but 10 fold increase in reliability as other small mills have nylon gears that do fail.


NOW with R8 spindles Taper


with Free Stand!!!"


Yet the pictures on ebay clearly shows a Titan TM25V... I questioned this before buying ad he said that it is the TM25V that is pictured...


After buying it, paying $375AUD freight, receiving it, then finding all the faults/defects/missing tools/complete crap and the fact I can't even test/tram it as the draw bar is too short, I am wanting to have the mill replaced with one that is "fit for purpose" with solid castings (if a mill doesn't have solid castings, especially on the dovetails which make it a mill, it's just a drill press at most and not a mill), the high price I paid for it ($1490AUD plus freight) compared to other same machines that he sold recently for far less (~$1100 + freight) My last response from Stuart at Titan Machinery (yesterday arvo) was this;


(Email quote from Stuart) "These machines were old stock and prices to clear made at previous factory they are ok for some hobby guy if he need to drill some holes mill a few slots etc they are like man other cheaper machines."


So $1490 for a (P.O.S.) "machine" that can "drill some holes mill a few slots" with terrible castings that will cause the "machine?" to wear out in no time we might as well pay a machinist to "drill some holes mill a few slots" for a quarter of the price. The "New" machines from the "new" factory are $1890 (quoted from him) which include the belt driven head etc. A belt kit for the gear driven TM20VL is $400 so there is no real price difference and definitely no discounted pricing for what I payed for this pos.


I contacted the ACCC to find out directly what my rights are in this situation. They said as it is a "major problem"/"major defects" and these major defects were not listed in the sale description which if they were I would have defiantly not bought this machine, it is the full responsibility of Titan Machinery (as they are a registered company in Australia selling to the Australian public) to replace the machine with new one that meets the standards of milling machines (eg. solid castings) but he is saying I need to pay for return shipping and he will refund the cost of the machine, ie $1490, yet Stuart is trying to get out of not paying the freight either way, so expects me to pay $750AUD for both way freight on a machine that shouldn't have been sold or sent in the first place!?


Stuart has told me over the phone that the factory these were made in were (quote) "dodgy and unreliable" and has switched factory's, but this was said after I payed for and received the mill (which shouldn't have been sold, especially as "NEW!" or "best small hobby milling machine".) and said "well that's what you get with Chinese machines". I didn't buy it from China, I bought it from an Australian company expecting a reasonable (brand new defect free) machine for the price I paid and it's up to the importer to check these faults out before selling them onto their customers. Everyone would at least expect solid castings on a mill yeah?


So this is what you get for trying to support the "local" company's and help our economy rather than just buying direct from China for a quarter of the price. Not good ethics at all.

I am quite off as I have heard some good reports about their machinery etc but from their amazing awesome write ups on their website and ebay only to receive this crappy machine followed by him saying that "well they are just crap machines and that's what I should expect from them"


What has happened to company's sticking by their products?


Sorry for the rant but I am off... :/ was going to buy a couple of lathes off him as well (ie set my workshop up, spending tens of thousands of $$$$$$$ with them) but see how this pans out... If this is the standard of their machines/salesmanship/customer service, $$&@)(\)?


At the end of the day, this machines castings etc is not acceptable for anyone that's buying a brand new mill (be you a hobbyist or "pro" machinist). At least the ACCC is on my side :/ but this is a headache and time waster that should have never happened.

Now, at this point in time I would suggest anyone planning to buy a Chinese made product to fly over there and pick the machine you want personally and inspect it there rather than spending the extra mark up price that you pay going through Australian stores. It will actually work out cheaper flying over there to do this, plus you get a holiday as well... Who is to blame here?..

Cheers for the help and info!

Keep em coming please!

:/

If you are still within the 45 days lodge a paypal claim as well. You can also talk to your bank about reversing the credit card transaction if you paid that way through paypal.
Dave

I looked at one of their machines on flea bay and asked if they check the machines before dispatch and was told that they "switch them on to make sure they run" Really gives you faith when you read this thread and their reply to the email.
Kryn

Shoot, after seeing that hole in the casting, that thing really is a boat anchor!!!

All I can say is, good luck with it.

Plenty of room here to condemn businesses that dont make good and replace it when they supply something that is that bad.

This kind of thing can really be bad news for the supplier if its not handled well.

Covering return shipping back to supplier/seller really is the least this guy needs to do.

He has no wriggle room to leave you stuck with it, given the issues you have uncovered so far.

Originally Posted by racer123

If you are still within the 45 days lodge a paypal claim as well. You can also talk to your bank about reversing the credit card transaction if you paid that way through paypal. Dave

Agree. Dispute the machine as 'not as described'. That usually gets PayPal to put a hold on the money. If you paid by direct deposit, head straight for court and start a small claims action if you can - not sure what the max limit is. However even filing a civil case is going to cost you something but it sure gets the attention of the person on the other end. And of course get the ACCC involved. Sounds like he's shot himself in the foot well & truly if his email descriptions & comments WRT the machine quality don't match his advertising claims. That's an open & shut case for false & misleading advertising. Having said all that and while you have my sympathy, thinking that you could possibly get a high quality machine for that amount of money is fantasy land stuff. IMO you got your money's worth, frankly, just the advertising was total BS. You really can't buy a milling machine that can be described as rigid & accurate, new, for less than maybe $5000, judging by my personal examination of H&F offerings. PDW

1image.jpg 2image.jpg

Steve, sure looks ugly and highly disappointing on a new machine. But it is not hopeless. It does not look structural to me. It could be cleaned out with solvent, then filled with JB-weld and sanded flush. You know, my Chinese Sieg X3 mill too had some spots where I can see filler on the ways. They carefully fill it in at the factory, and afterwards it looks much less catastrophic. Because one does not see anymore how deep the defect really is. Many expensive machine tool has casting imperfections, filled with putty and hidden under the paint job. As long as its not a structural problem that is acceptable. True, you never see that on the ways of expensive machine tools, because its a major defect they reject and remelt such castings. But have you considered offering to keep the machine for an appropriate discount? I would personally consider a JB-weld repair, if the seller was prepared to discount the machine by something like 4 or 500 bucks.

On a side note, there are some sellers of Chinese machine tools that have two prices. One very low cut-throat price for a machine as crated in the China factory. Another considerably higher price for a premium machine that has been uncrated and cleaned/deburred/trammed/adjusted/tested etc. Sometimes I wounder what such a seller would do when preparing a premium machine and finding such a defect. Re packing and selling as untested? Or taking apart to be sold as spare parts? To be honest, with this sort of machinery there is not much margin for the dealer to play with and provide warranty.

Anyway, I hope you will get an acceptable solution/remedy. It surely serves as a warning to anyone considering to buy such lowest cost machinery unseen by mail order.

Even with a $5000 odd unit from somewhere like H&F I would be wanting to look at it first.

Just seems to be a sign of the times. An acquaintance of mine over there in China on the coal face (so to speak) in manufacturing, tells me stuff about their QA. It aint an endorsement.

Originally Posted by jatt

Even with a $5000 odd unit from somewhere like H&F I would be wanting to look at it first. Just seems to be a sign of the times. An acquaintance of mine over there in China on the coal face (so to speak) in manufacturing, tells me stuff about their QA. It aint an endorsement.

You can get any level of quality, and QA, out of China that you're prepared to pay for. What you can't get is 1950's to 1970's level of quality in manufacturing & design as performed by the best of European and USA manufacturers, for a price that is less than 2 weeks wages. I frankly don't think much of *any* of those mills as being fit for any serious machining in steel, let alone stainless alloys and alloys like pre-hardened 4140, Bisalloy etc etc. They lack HP *and* rigidity. Buying one of these and then expecting it to perform is the triumph of hope over experience, and learning nothing from all those Youtube videos out there. As for basing a business around converting one to an NC mill - no. Just no. Maybe for machining aluminium with loose tolerances but even then - no enclosure so no high pressure coolant to remove chips from the cutting zone, no tool changer, pissy R8 spindle, pretty hard to see anything worthwhile coming out of it unless it's dead simple 2 axis stuff that can be done with a single cutter in a single setup. The OP should ask for a full refund and get it, though, because as delivered that machine is not even fit for hobby machinist level activities. PDW

If you google "TM25V" the number one result at the top of page one is this thread.

So, anyone thinking of buying a TM25V in the future is going to be reading this, and hearing first hand how Titan Machinery handle the problem..

It's a simple enough customer service issue, the customer receives faulty goods... the onus is on the seller to make it right.

Ray

I was tempted to send them an email saying I was interested in one of their mills but had a mate who bought TM25 and had quality issues that you wouldnt address. Thought twice about it as I didnt want to make things worse. Rays post makes a good point. Perhaps you could tell Stuart to google the same and see if hes happy with that!

Simon

Thanks all all for the great help, info and support!

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

1image.jpg 2image.jpg

Steve, sure looks ugly and highly disappointing on a new machine. But it is not hopeless. It does not look structural to me. It could be cleaned out with solvent, then filled with JB-weld and sanded flush. You know, my Chinese Sieg X3 mill too had some spots where I can see filler on the ways. They carefully fill it in at the factory, and afterwards it looks much less catastrophic. Because one does not see anymore how deep the defect really is. Many expensive machine tool has casting imperfections, filled with putty and hidden under the paint job. As long as its not a structural problem that is acceptable. True, you never see that on the ways of expensive machine tools, because its a major defect they reject and remelt such castings. But have you considered offering to keep the machine for an appropriate discount? I would personally consider a JB-weld repair, if the seller was prepared to discount the machine by something like 4 or 500 bucks.

On a side note, there are some sellers of Chinese machine tools that have two prices. One very low cut-throat price for a machine as crated in the China factory. Another considerably higher price for a premium machine that has been uncrated and cleaned/deburred/trammed/adjusted/tested etc. Sometimes I wounder what such a seller would do when preparing a premium machine and finding such a defect. Re packing and selling as untested? Or taking apart to be sold as spare parts? To be honest, with this sort of machinery there is not much margin for the dealer to play with and provide warranty.

Anyway, I hope you will get an acceptable solution/remedy. It surely serves as a warning to anyone considering to buy such lowest cost machinery unseen by mail order.

The thing is, I paid for a brand new machine (as described in their listing). No where in their listings or their website shows or mentions these major defects, defective castings, an unusable drawbar length so you can't use any tooling etc. I didn't pay for a milling machine that's full of casting holes, car bog, sloppy bearings, short drawbar, missing tooling according to the manual, etc. That wasn't what was stated in the ebay description at all, on Titan Machinery's official website or pre purchase emails etc.

Also, where do they list, mention, describe etc to "expect major casting defects that will cause premature machine failure" "car bog where there should be solid metal" etc like these with their (or any other company) machines, be they made anywhere in the world or for what ever price they charge for them. Where do they mention on their websites/ebay descriptions etc that "these machines are only good for someone wanting to drill some holes and mill a few slots" only, basically stating that they are pure junk?

So to just "accept" this as the "normal" is absolute crap. It's also not up to the end consumer/customer to find these defects/flaws/major faults etc after paying for a new machine that didn't list any of these major defects. They don't fail to mention how "great" these machines are though in their descriptions. False advertising much?

Originally Posted by SkydivingSteve

So to just "accept" this as the "normal" is absolute crap. It's also not up to the end consumer/customer to find these defects/flaws/major faults etc after paying for a new machine that didn't list any of these major defects. They don't fail to mention how "great" these machines are though in their descriptions. False advertising much?

It absolutely is false advertising, no doubt about it. You should be entitled to a full refund including shipping. That machine is not fit for its intended purpose and does not meet its advertising claims. PDW