Thread: Advice on condition of new mill received - Titan TM25v

> The thing with this is we are in Australia where the importers business is importing these machines that need
> to meet a standard, ie in this case "a milling machine" not a $1865 "boat anchor".

One could argue that at $ 1865 you cannot expect to buy a real "mill". What you get for that money is more like a "toy mill". Some do rightly call it a "mill/drill". Or a drill press with a compound table. Or a hobby mill. Anyway, something to use at home in your leisure time. Not something to earn money with all day long. So the question has to be, does this mill meet the hobbymill standard?

> I expect these importing companies to personally inspect every machine (or whatever they import from wherever)
> they import before selling onto their customers (that's just "common sense" though...).

You mean unpacking the machine, clean it, lubricate it, check and correct tramming, adjust spindle preload, remove casting sand from bearings, putty up holes in the casting etc etc? Who is going to pay for that? To do that properly takes at least 8 hours work. How much would you want to be paid per hour to do this, if the dealer offerd you this job?

People that buy such cheap machines do it to save money. I am happy to contribute my time and tender loving care to do this job, because I know it saves me money and its my machine. And because I know that I cannot afford/justify to buy the mill that I really would like to have (Aciera, Schaublin, Deckel....). Either I can fix that cheap toy mill to work for me, or I have no mill at all.

> If they don't do this at all, why buy from these Australian importing companies at all when you can get the same
> machine (or better) by dealing direct with the Chinese (etc) manufacturer?

You got to negotiate with the factory if they are prepared to sell you less than a container-load. Else you need to go through a facilitator which wants a share of your money too. They will all insist on being pre paid. Then you pay someone to arrange the shipping. In Australia you got to pay an agent to get it through customs. Then you can have it delivered at your cost. Then you unpack it, and find that the machine is completely rusted up because you did not pay to have it airtight sealed in plastic with a few silica gel bags inside.... and the container it came with on top of the ships deck was not water tight. You need a warranty part? No problem, but first send the broken item back.

> As this Australian business/businesses base their complete business on importing these machines from China
> (etc) to sell to the Australian public (etc) they have a duty of care to provide machines that are as advertised.

Sure. But do you really think that Genuine Swiss Rolex watch with the solid one piece 18Kt Gold housing for $75 is really made of massive Gold? Do you think fair trade would help you getting your money back?

> If they find defects like these in the "machines" THEY import from wherever, it's up to them to return the
> defective machines back to where they bought them from and either exchange the dodgy defective machine/s
> for defect free machines or THEY need to arrange full refunds and move on.
> It's not up to the end customer to do this as the end customer is paying for
> a brand new fully functional defect free machine as that what is described
> on their websites, ebay listings etc... and what we are paying THEM for. If
> "we" (the end customer) are just getting a machine that hasn't been
> properly inspected (or at all) by these Australian Machinery companies that
> import these machines that sell to the Australian public, what is the purpose
> of these companies? Why support them at all? What do they do???

You do not understand. A serious manufacturer (also in China) has a quality inspection, and parts that do not pass this inspection are discarded as rejects. But you are buying in a price bracket where the manufacturer cannot afford to simply discard rejects. The best components are used to make the better quality machines which either sell for more money or are used to fill orders for the larger repeat customers, those that buy several container loads each year. The not so good quality goes to dealers that want to negotiate a larger discount. The junk machines go to single shot buyers, like small dealerships that only order an assortment of few machines at a time. Now there probably are dealers that knowingly buy junk quality at the factory, but do not pass on the savings to their customers.

The near identical machine as the TM25V is made by Optimum Machinen in their Yangzhou factory. It is the Opti BF20L Vario (http://www.optimum-machines.com/prod...s/bf-20-vario/). Many other factories also make this model mill, it is sold by many dealers worldwide. The casting in the TM25 could well be a reject casting from the Optimum factory, returned to the foundry for re-melting but sold on to a smaller backyard factory. Ayway, the Opti BF20Vari did win the product of the year 2008 award from the "Maschinen im Modellbau" magazine, the German equivalent of "Model Engineer". It also was highly rated in the German "heimwerker Test" magazine (heimwerker-test.de) which reviews wood- and metalworking tools for the home user. So there is probably nothig wrong with the design of this mill itself.

> Please show me any website that sells any type of machinery (be it for hobby or
> pro machinists etc) that lists "JB weld"ed slideways that cover up any major
> casting defects as standard etc?
> Sorry but this this crap is unacceptable.

I cannot help you there. I can assure you that this would not happen with say a Wabeco hobbymill. But it costs much more. I think that if you buy a rock bottom price Chinese mill or lathe, you must be prepared to accept some compromises and invest some considerable time (TLC - Tender Loving Care). Else be prepared for buyers remorse.

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

I think that if you buy a rock bottom price Chinese mill or lathe, you must be prepared to accept some compromises and invest some considerable time (TLC - Tender Loving Care). Else be prepared for buyers remorse.

I agree with all of what you say, *but* the seller is still guilty of false & misleading advertising. This is inescapable. The reason that the ACCC exists is, in part, that 'caveat emptor' no longer applies. The fact that nobody should have actually believed the BS anyway does not excuse the seller lying about the quality of what he sells. My advice - get a refund, save up double or more the amount you've spent and buy a decent quality machine, or get a new Chinese one that you can personally inspect and ensure that it complies with its inspection certificate WRT squareness, flatness, cylindricity etc. It's brand new & doesn't have an individual inspection certificate? What more do you actually need to know? PDW

Hi CBA,

I partially agree with what you have said. It certainly reinforces my experiences when I imported my mill direct from the manufacturer in China. While the individual parts were mostly OK (it did have a small amount of metal putty in parts, but not enough for me to worry about) but the assembly was very poor. I had to totally disassemble, clean and then re-adjust the thrust bearings on all the hand wheels and leads crews. It does make sense that as a one off buyer (I did pose as a buyer looking to import many more, hoping that they would put in more effort) I was never going to be looked after as well as a buyer ordering a container load. They also offered a 13 month warranty, but that was never going to be honoured with a one off sale anyway! BUT, and here is the big BUT, I saved a bit of money importing directly. I would suspect that if I can import a "one off" mill and save about a $1000 then I think I would be saving even more if I was Titan machinery. Their mark ups must be huge, so when you buy from them, you expect a warranty and some after sales support. Secondly, (and here is the biggie, for me) have a look at the first sentence in the description for the TM25V on their website:

The TM25V milling machine has been developed by TITAN MACHINERY is possibly the best little mill around .It has a variable speed 1.0 kw BRUSHLESS DC motor that offers higher torque than normal brushed dc motors coupled to a 2 speed belt drive spindle for ultimate smoothness and quiet running. Another sign of quality is precision ground sideways and adjustable tapered gibs not tiny adjustment screws that are found on other smaller machines (Tapered gibs are a must for a rigid machine!)


It doesn't mention anything in there about it being made from rejected parts. It only states that it maybe one of the best little mills! If you are going to sell economy models of machine tools then at least be transparent and state that fact. Lets look at the keys words used on their website for this machine:

"Best little mill"
"Ultimate smoothness"
"Precision ground bed ways"

Nowhere does it say it's a basic low end mill or a mill made to a price. I don't have a problem with Titan Machinery (and in fact any other seller) selling low end machinery but they can at least be honest enough to be transparent about the product they are selling.

Cheers,

Simon

Originally Posted by simonl

Hi CBA,

I partially agree with what you have said. It certainly reinforces my experiences when I imported my mill direct from the manufacturer in China. While the individual parts were mostly OK (it did have a small amount of metal putty in parts, but not enough for me to worry about) but the assembly was very poor. I had to totally disassemble, clean and then re-adjust the thrust bearings on all the hand wheels and leads crews. It does make sense that as a one off buyer (I did pose as a buyer looking to import many more, hoping that they would put in more effort) I was never going to be looked after as well as a buyer ordering a container load. They also offered a 13 month warranty, but that was never going to be honoured with a one off sale anyway! BUT, and here is the big BUT, I saved a bit of money importing directly. I would suspect that if I can import a "one off" mill and save about a $1000 then I think I would be saving even more if I was Titan machinery. Their mark ups must be huge, so when you buy from them, you expect a warranty and some after sales support. Secondly, (and here is the biggie, for me) have a look at the first sentence in the description for the TM25V on their website:

The TM25V milling machine has been developed by TITAN MACHINERY is possibly the best little mill around .It has a variable speed 1.0 kw BRUSHLESS DC motor that offers higher torque than normal brushed dc motors coupled to a 2 speed belt drive spindle for ultimate smoothness and quiet running. Another sign of quality is precision ground sideways and adjustable tapered gibs not tiny adjustment screws that are found on other smaller machines (Tapered gibs are a must for a rigid machine!)


It doesn't mention anything in there about it being made from rejected parts. It only states that it maybe one of the best little mills! If you are going to sell economy models of machine tools then at least be transparent and state that fact. Lets look at the keys words used on their website for this machine:

"Best little mill"
"Ultimate smoothness"
"Precision ground bed ways"

Nowhere does it say it's a basic low end mill or a mill made to a price. I don't have a problem with Titan Machinery (and in fact any other seller) selling low end machinery but they can at least be honest enough to be transparent about the product they are selling.

Cheers,

Simon

Exactly.

........

No where on the listings say this/these mills are "cut throat priced to clear" etc. this is rather deceiving in the ebay description;

"This would make a excellent mill for somebody that after a small heavier duty machine*"

as per the ebay description. The questions asked prior to purchase via email (on the 6th of August) about the TM25V mills regarding the tolerances these mills are good for/tested too with a reply of "0.02mm". (0.02mm accuracy will be fine for the "prototype" parts I am wanting to make for now)...

This is what you get for trying to support local businesses and our economy? .....

Thanks heaps all for all the info, help, advice and support so far! I will keep you posted.

Cheers

Originally Posted by SkydivingSteve

....... This is what you get for trying to support local businesses and our economy? .....
Cheers

Sorry, not local business and economy. As far as I know, Hercus was the very last company manufacturing a small milling machine in Australia, (in Adelaide).

The claim from Titan Machinery "The TM25V milling machine has been developed by TITAN MACHINERY is possibly the best little mill around...." is false. The only thing Titan Machinery in NSW "developped" is the name "TM25" and the sales blurb. T for Titan and M for mill. The machine was designed by German maker Optimum for production in their Guangzhou factory in China. Only Optimum machines labelled with "Premium Line" are still made in Europe.

Actually the titan mills have a different base / column design to the optimum / g0704 machines

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Sorry, not local business and economy. As far as I know, Hercus was the very last company manufacturing a small milling machine in Australia, (in Adelaide).

The claim from Titan Machinery "The TM25V milling machine has been developed by TITAN MACHINERY is possibly the best little mill around...." is false. The only thing Titan Machinery in NSW "developped" is the name "TM25" and the sales blurb. T for Titan and M for mill. The machine was designed by German maker Optimum for production in their Guangzhou factory in China. Only Optimum machines labelled with "Premium Line" are still made in Europe.

True, but "we" still pay a massive premium to these importing company's which they make their profits, charge/pay GST, taxes etc... So either way it keeps food on their tables and taxation back into "the system" so it is supporting the local "industries". Granted they do not make the tools here, but they do charge their "premiums" etc... Anyone can go to China and get the same machine (actually definitely MUCH better as you would inspect it first) for ~$500 AUD plus freight so they do make a MASSIVE profit when things work out. So it does support these company's by buying through them (Australian importers/Titan Machinery etc) rather than importing directly "ourselves". This is why they do what they do, import Chinese machinery, as Chinese wages (and cost of living etc) is what we call "slave wages" here. Either way, the cost of resmelting this mills table is minuscule if it was done over there. I am not expecting extreme precision but just what I was told they will produce before purchasing this machine (ie 0.02mm...).

I had had another look at the tables casting defect (void) this arvo, it actually has a ~1mm wide "crack" that runs down from the top of the dovetail (where the casting void is) to about 2mm from the base of the dovetail. My "naked eyes" can't tell if if there is a hairline crack that runs right through but I will check again tomorrow, but either way, it is structural and detrimental to the performance/longevity/purpose of what the machine is designed to do (no matter what).

I don't expect them to fully tram any machine prior to sale as this needs to be done (well should be) before every use for any mill. But a basic going over, ie checking the ways for casting defects, dodgy bearings, correct drawbar length, ensure all tools that come with the machine/s that are listed in the manual are all there, etc, is all that is needed. If they do more than that, great, but at least a basic going over is expected (well I expect it if I am paying $1000+ more than what it costs to import directly to buy a Chinese (or wherever made) machine locally) for any company that imports "these" machines to sell. All they need is a procedure in place where they have someone open the crate, check a check list off then re nail the crate back up. In a factory environment, that will only take 1 hour MAX to do. Is that too much too ask for? For an importing company to inspect each machine for 1 hour, it WILL save them thousands, millions, billions in the long run and secure their company's name and reputation 10 fold.

False advertising isn't going to help anyone.

I still want to support our local businesses (ie Titan Machinery) as we ARE in the beginnings of a FORCED MAJOR recession (as we missed out on the GFC)(We haven't seen anything yet of what is to come according to our reserve bank...) but they have to sell what they advertise and stand by what they sell. By law, they have business insurance for this exact reason. I don't want our country going into the dump but I do want what I paid for and what I paid for was the milling machine that was advertised in their descriptions, emails etc, which is not what I received.

Steve

Originally Posted by SkydivingSteve

True, but "we" still pay a massive premium to these importing company's which they make their profits, charge/pay GST, taxes etc... So either way it keeps food on their tables and taxation back into "the system" so it is supporting the local "industries"...........................
Steve

Steve, I honestly admire your thinking. But I personally feel it would much better serve the good cause, if you imported directly and donated half of your saving to the Salvation Army. Many of these importers are just "box shifters" and do not contribute that much to "the system" besides the GST (and maybe pay the taxes on their profits), and nothing to "local industries". Also, when importing directly you still support a local customs and freight agent, and pay GST (unless you can convince customs your landed cost is less than $1k).

Sorry if the casting defect extends to a hair crack - in this case there is really nothing you can do, except replace the part. Or if possible at all, return the whole machine for a refund.

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Steve, I honestly admire your thinking. But I personally feel it would much better serve the good cause, if you imported directly and donated half of your saving to the Salvation Army. Many of these importers are just "box shifters" and do not contribute that much to "the system" besides the GST (and maybe pay the taxes on their profits), and nothing to "local industries". Also, when importing directly you still support a local customs and freight agent, and pay GST (unless you can convince customs your landed cost is less than $1k).

Sorry if the casting defect extends to a hair crack - in this case there is really nothing you can do, except replace the part. Or if possible at all, return the whole machine for a refund.

I am a builder/carpenter/joiner/welder/fabricator by trade (now studying aeronautical, mechanical and bio-mechanical engineering with some electrical engineering thrown in as well...) and running my own business, I have standards that my company must meet and what I advertise, my clients get. So as I advertise top quality work, my clients get top quality work that meets and excels the Australian standards. Being in this business, we must have procedures in place that my tradesmen must follow to ensure the end products is up to my standards and most of all, my clients must be happy with the works that we have been done. Maybe that's how I have my line of thinking?

Titan machinery don't advertise as "importers" only. They don't advertise that they don't check their imported products as they come into THEIR factory to be sold onto the Australian public. As a business importing goods of any nature from overseas, no matter what country, standard practice in my eyes would be to check these products for defects as they come in to ensure my clients are getting what they have paid for which is what the company "Titan Machinery" advertises.

I refer back to the ebay description again; "This would make a excellent mill for somebody that after a small heavier duty machine*"

No where in their listings/descriptions do they say "these are made to a cut throat price and are only good for someone looking to inaccurately drill a few holes and mill a few slots and that's it". I know I am repeating myself a bit, but my point still stands that I did not receive what was advertised and any importing company (no matter what they import) have a duty of care to check the products they have imported to ensure they meet the standards of what they have advertised these products to do and what they are for. They don't mention "factory seconds", "old stock", etc... But the problem I am faced with is that the "excellent mill for somebody that after a small heavier duty machine*" is full of major casting defects that renders this "mill" not fit for it intended purpose which is to make precision parts to a max tolerance of 0.02mm (which is acceptable for what I am wanting to do with it for now).

In a factory setup that these machinery importers "should" have is a basic "checking station" where the machines are checked for defects throughout. I am not saying they should tram them etc. but just a basic going over to ensure all castings are solid, all the listed tooling is all there and that they meet the advertised tolerance test sheet that is supposed to come with these machines. Like I have said before, this will only take an hour at most when a "proper system" is in place. All that is needed is a bench with all the appropriate tools racked up (on hand) to open the crate, check the machines for any defects, ensure all tooling that the manual lists is there, etc. which is all checked of a pre made check list with the serial number and dom of the machine being checked marked down as well. This would save money in the long run and ensure clients are getting what you (the business which in this case is Titan Machinery) has advertised for these machines.

I have contacted and have filed a "item not as described" "majorly defective" case with ebay, PayPal and Titan Machinery about these major problems and what I would like to happen to resolve this problem. Stuart has sent a replacement drawbar out that is long enough to accept and lock the R8 tooling in now. But that is the least of my concerns with this "milling machine" due to the major casting defects which will cause this mill to wear out in no time, constantly loose accuracy, even if the the voids are filled with bog.

I have requested a new machine be sent out and this one will go back on the same truck that the new machine comes on to be taken back to Titan Machinery as I am not responsible for further shipping (returning this faulty machine or having the replacement to be sent out as per what our ACCC laws state for "major problems" which this "machine" clearly has.). Stuart has told me this is the last TM25V (TM20VL labeled as TM25V???) machine from the factory he had these made from left and the "new" TM25V's are made in another factory all together (apparently the same factory as the Tormach machines are made, I am guessing that the "new" TM25V mills will be the factory seconds of the Tormach machines as we discussed previously by rather than re smelting defective parts, they will go on the Titan machines... :/ ... Who knows?!) Either way they still need to meet the standards they (Titan Machinery) advertise. He quoted $1890 for one of the "new" TM25V machines without the stand (The stand that came with this one has a 10mm warp in it, bog chips, and measurements "all over the shop" done to the inch lol... Not worth it's weight in steel... I don't care about a stand as I will(was going to) make a proper solid stand for it from scratch anyway) but as the price difference from what I had paid for this "heap of junk" to the price of the "new" machines is $400, I said I will pay that extra $400 for the replacement as long as the replacement will be checked for casting defects before sending it. (Ie solid castings as what is expected with any milling machine).

As a licensed/registered Australian business, he (Titan Machinery) has (must have by law) business insurance that will cover his losses from sending out the majorly defective machine and will cover the shipping costs to a point.

I have though been thinking about how this machine can be fixed though I believe the cost of doing this will be beyond the price of a full replacement. Ie it will need a new table that has solid castings and new tapered gibs to match, a new Z axis column and new tapered gibs to match, a new bearing in the Z axis handle, new head as the heads castings is FULL of air pockets/voids (extremely bad casting I haven't uploaded photographs of this yet... But is it worth it?) etc. BUT I still have not checked the rest of the machines ways at all as time is money. I can pay a local machinist to look at it and try and "fix it" but he charges $100 per hour plus GST just for time...

A full replacement is the only worthy option.

You are delusional - I can't put it any more delicately - if you think that a milling machine such as that can be uncrated, stripped down to the point of visual inspection of all major castings, reassembled, gibs adjusted and recrated in an hour. Let alone actually measuring the ways for deviation from standard. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. Doing this is a *factory* job on the manufacturing line. If it's not done there, the machine is crap and rectifying the faults is going to be very, very expensive in time. So any machine with the defects that yours has, was not inspected as built (or they have very loose standards) and the importer shouldn't accept them or immediately push back if a dud is detected - but we all know the importer is basically a drop-shipper at those prices, so you get what you paid for. That's the way it is. Frankly, you got your money's worth. Now having said that, the importer is still guilty of false & misleading advertising, so you should return the machine for a full refund and get it without argument. But if you think that you're going to get a precision 'heavy duty' mill for $1800 brand new, I really can't say much more other than that you are engaging in major league wishful thinking and you are going to get another POS. You're paying POS money, nobody is going to provide you with anything else. If you are buying this as a BUSINESS MACHINE not a home shop play toy, for God's sake BUY a business level quality machine, not a home shop play toy. It will cost you probably 4X to 5X that price, new, from a dealer who checks and guarantees the machine. The more of these threads I read, the more I appreciate Milacron's wisdom about discussion of them on PM. PDW

So, we all agree that Steve should get a refund?

While it does look like we may be in disagreement with what a person should expect for $1800, fair enough. I guess my way of looking at what to expect for that price would be to see what others here have received when they have bought a new DM45, HM45 etc. etc because the only way to get a "reasonable" measure of the quality to expect for that price range is to see what has been received in the past.

While it seems that the more "experienced" and skilled members on this forum tend to own good quality S/H machines that they have picked up along the way (these machines also have their issues but its more related to wear, not quality), people like myself who have just recently got into the hobby have tended to lean towards the (albeit limited) certainty of a new Chinese machine. EDIT: My mill was the last Chinese machine I will ever buy! Quite a few members on this forum have a generic Chinese 45 size mill and from memory, all have reported problems of some sort including quill backlash (a major common problem) poor casting finish, casting sand & crap in the head etc. lead screw misalignment with the nut etc. Just to name some of the common faults. Anyone who purchases one of these mills and then claims to be surprised when they are fronted with one of these faults has obviously not researched the products on google or ANY of the metalwork forums and quite frankly, is a bit silly.

Not withstanding the above, receiving a mill with casting voids like what has been posted here is IMO an unexpected and an unforeseeable result of a Chinese machine that has failed to meet even the standard we have come to expect from a Chinese mill.

Cheers,

Simon

Originally Posted by SkydivingSteve

As a licensed/registered Australian business, he (Titan Machinery) has (must have by law) business insurance that will cover his losses from sending out the majorly defective machine and will cover the shipping costs to a point.

I dont think so!...the only people I know of who have to insurance (by Law) are professionals such as accountants, lawyers, doctors etc....however it is prudent of a business to have liability insurance to protect them in a law suit should something go wrong

My business only needs insurance to satisfy the interests of my clients...no one else asks for it or requests proof that I have such.

Titan only needs to provide warranty by law ( this is not business insurance)....but thats when arguments start..is it the claim WARRANTY or not....the supplier does not have automatically give warranty on the say so of others..eg yourself or any other person (a court is different of course) ..its up to the purchaser to prove and get it should the supplier become difficult.

any way...you seem to be a bit more patient that I....I'd be ringing every day with a formal letter having been sent requesting immediate rectification

Steve, if you would like a mill that comes out of the Tormach factory, you will have to pay the price that Tormach asks. You will not get that by trading in your bad Titan and trowing another $400 after it for the "new model" Titan "made in the Tormach factory".

Have you taken the time to study the Titan website? They have a tab for "Customer Service". Have you tried reading it? Here it is:
http://www.titanmachinery.com.au/customer-service
It repeats over and over the phrase "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet....." which is a placeholder text.

Have you tried in "google map" to enter the address of Titan Machinery? You can get a street view and have a look at the place they operate from. Do you really think they need insurance? Looks like a one man show to me.

If you can return your mill it, go for it, no run for it, even if you have to pay the freight. But I would not throw more good money after it.
If you can't return it, you have paid to learn that you only get what you pay for. Sell it for spares or as a project for someone prepared to invest the time it needs. .