Thread: Al-960b gears a bit noisy

Can you do this

Stuart, I do not think these lathes come with hardened and precision ground gears, like you would expect in a mass produced car. With Chinese lathes its often roughly machined cast iron straight tooth gears, mostly not even de-burred. The shaft spacing is invariably excessive to accommodate large manufacturing tolerances, leading to excessive free play and noise. Such gears do need to run-in: the roughly machined soft tooth surfaces will soon smooth and polish themselves out, thereby increasing free play and noise. And the gears will shed their burrs. Both leading to metal particles and dust collecting at the bottom of the headstock.

There is unfortunately not much you can do besides getting used to the noise. Except maybe try a thicker oil but that will lead to more churning and heating of the headstock at the higher rpm. Let's face it, the question is how much is one prepared to pay for a nice quiet lathe. A similar size lathe (12" swing) with quiet hardened precision ground gears would have to cost several times more (Emcomat 14 anyone?). If you are otherwise happy with your lathe, just learn to live with the noise and use it. Chris

Originally Posted by morrisman

Can you do this

HI,
Yes I can, Pics are attached


The Pictures are taken with the Lathe being in Gear Position 'L2' , this is where the most freeplay is - about 6mm. In the other Gear Positions the Freeplay is significantly reduced. The Noise doesn't sound drastic, just noisier than normal. The Noise is only really heard in L2 and a lot more so when the Belt is on the 'Fast Pulley'. I put some of this down to Myself in that I should have changed the Oil more often.

The Picture of the Drive Belt is a new Belt I bought to try 'Rexon BX675/BX25 as I have been having trouble changing the Original B25 belt to the Fast and Slow Pulleys. Personally although unusual I think the original Belt has actually shrunk as I never used to have any trouble with it (I know others have though). Just out of interest I looked up the B25 and BX25 Belt lengths on the Internet well apparently they are supposed to be the same length. Well Mine certainly aren't the same length and in saying that perhaps all the AL-960B Drive Belts "B25' aren't the correct length ?. Sorry if I am rambling on to much Guys.

Anyway back to the Gears. The AL-960b Lathes are actually Taiwanese and not Chinese. The Gears not being Hardened is not something I even thought about, but I believe You are correct Chris they aren't that I can tell. I am a Mechanic so I do understand about the Gears. Looking at the Gears I am pretty certain that they are Steel and not Cast. They do look like they were pretty well made, but they have certainly been run in by now. I think I will stick with the ISO-46 Hydraulic Oil rather than going thicker, perhaps an Additive might Help.

I am quite Happy with the Lathe and I don't intend to be changing it anytime soon. Hare & Forbes (Machinery House) from Melbourne got back to Me with a Price on the Gears $867.15 plus Freight. That Price is for Gears labelled 4, 5, 6 on page 24 and Gears labelled 2, 4, 5, 11, 12, 13, 15 & 16 on page 24. The Gears might'nt sound Cheap, but that is 11 Gears My Guess was about $800.00 so I wasn't far off.

For the Interest of other AL-960B Owners Hare & Forbes have all the Gears in stock except for No.2 from page OM26/opm24.

DSC_0068.jpgDSC_0072.jpgDSC_0069.jpg

I can't really help with the gears Stewart, but the belt size "25" refers to the circumference of the belt in inches. I think its the outside circumference but can't exactly remember.....You used to be able to get matched belts but these days there seems to be a fair difference in the belt lengths sold under the one size. Its like random lengths come out of the machine and they just put them in the closest size possible.....

It does make sense though, higher speed = more noise. The only machine i have (other than the shaper) that is gear driven is the Vernier but that is in a much different class to the 960b. It gets louder and higher pitched the faster the speed.

Hi Stewart,

Your pictures aren't working for me.

I'd think the replacement gears will be just as "bad" as the ones you have already.

Stuart

The pics dont work

Cannot see the pics.

> Anyway back to the Gears. The AL-960b Lathes are actually Taiwanese and not Chinese.
Taiwanese are usually one notch better quality than mainland Chinese..... but they are definitely Chinese too, they just have another government

> Looking at the Gears I am pretty certain that they are Steel and not Cast.
sometime the smaller are steel and the larger cast


> Hare & Forbes (Machinery House) from Melbourne got back to Me with a Price on the Gears $867.15 plus Freight.
20% of the price for the whole new lathe just for a gear set? Does the noise affect the surface finish that badly, or is it just the disturbance of the audible noise? You can buy lots of ear plugs for $800. You could also buy a VFD drive for that money, it would somewhat reduce noise too, plus you get variable speed and need to change gears less often.

In general, geared head lathes are best for removing metal fast. The downside is bad surface finish and noise, unless its a very expensive machine. Least noisy are flat belt drive lathes with plain spindle bearings, and these also make the best surface finish (noise is just another word for vibrations).

Originally Posted by steran50

The Picture of the Drive Belt is a new Belt I bought to try 'Rexon BX675/BX25 as I have been having trouble changing the Original B25 belt to the Fast and Slow Pulleys. Personally although unusual I think the original Belt has actually shrunk as I never used to have any trouble with it (I know others have though). Just out of interest I looked up the B25 and BX25 Belt lengths on the Internet well apparently they are supposed to be the same length. Well Mine certainly aren't the same length and in saying that perhaps all the AL-960B Drive Belts "B25' aren't the correct length ?. Sorry if I am rambling on to much Guys.

What I was told about the belts was that the US suppliers measure belts differently to the Far Eastern suppliers, one is measured at the base of the pulley sheaves, the other is measured halfway up the sheave sides.

Regarding the gear noise, silly thought but are you sure the noise is coming from the headstock gears and not the QCGB (which is very noisy at fast speeds)?

Originally Posted by steran50

HI,

perhaps an Additive might Help.

I doubt it.

From my experience they are mainly emulsifier which thickens everything up, but don't do much.

The geared head lathes I've seen (Chinese and Taiwanese) have all had steel gears to the spindle, and for the slower turning gears in the feed gbox.

But the metal they use is probably not hardened on this level of lathe.

The problem could also be the gear centres/splines are also worn and that's where a lot of the backlash is comming from.

Until you open it up you won't know.

Rob

> The geared head lathes I've seen (Chinese and Taiwanese) have all had steel gears to the spindle, and for the slower turning gears in the feed gbox.

Rob, it can be deceiving. On old machines, we are used that cast gears have recessed sides that distinctively look like cast. I have seen Chinese gears (from SIEG for example) with flat sides looking just like steel gears... but a few file strokes to the side of a tooth reveal its extremely soft stuff not unlike cast iron, and produces a powder that blackens your fingers. I thought it's maybe something between cast iron and cast steel. Then again, the exact composition of the steel used may not be something that is very well controlled. I think this is why Chinese lathes (and mills) are often noticeably heavier than similar size western machines of comparable performance, they try to compensate for their poorer iron/steel by making it slightly thicker. I like to compare it... its like if there were too many melted soup cans in the smelter mix. Chris

Hi Chris,

Yes it can be deceiving. The Chinese cast iron generally seems quite good (change gears and bed, headstock etc) in that it is hard (try drilling some), although this may make it a bit more brittle.

Whatever they use for drive gears is undoubtably fairly soft metal, steel or otherwise. The QC gears in my CQ9325 are what appears to be steel, but certainly not hardened in any way, and there is obvious feathering of the selector forks etc, which should really have bronze faces, but don't.

The metallurgy is definitely questionable regarding long term durability.

Rob

HI,
> Hare & Forbes (Machinery House) from Melbourne got back to Me with a Price on the Gears $867.15 plus Freight.
20% of the price for the whole new lathe just for a gear set? Does the noise affect the surface finish that badly, or is it just the disturbance of the audible noise? You can buy lots of ear plugs for $800. You could also buy a VFD drive for that money, it would somewhat reduce noise too, plus you get variable speed and need to change gears less often.

Thats Spare Parts for You, try Buying Spare Parts from any Manufacturer of anything cheaply - You can't as that is a lot of them make there Money in Spares. No the Surface Finish is fine as there is No vibration. I'd rather wear Earmuffs don't like Earplugs much. Not really into VFD's ,but Yes it would reduce the Noise as a slower Speed could be selected.

>I can't really help with the gears Stewart, but the belt size "25" refers to the circumference of the belt in inches. I think its the outside circumference but can't exactly remember.....You used to be able to get matched belts but these days there seems to be a fair difference in the belt lengths sold under the one size. Its like random lengths come out of the machine and they just put them in the closest size possible.....

Inside Circumference actually. Australia Measures belts on the Inside where as America Measures on the Outside ( I think I got that around the right way). Matched Belts don't necessarily come from from the same batch and I think they allow about 1/2" variation.

All the Gears in the Headstock definately looked to be Steel. I can't comment on the Qcgb as I have not looked in there. The problem which is just the Lathe sounds a bit HARSH' in L2 only stems from the Headstock and not the QCGB. the Lathe is quite usable in this condition. I had the Headstock Cover of the day before the Pics were taken the Gears is where the most Wear is. The pulley Driveshaft Splines appeared really good. one of the other Gears appeared to have some movement though.

I think I will put up with it for now. If I missed anything, Sorry - but I have to go back to Work.

Originally Posted by steran50

but the belt size "25" refers to the circumference of the belt in inches.

Belts... I think they allow about 1/2" variation.

thats what I've been taught...unless of course you want a matched pair or multiples of, and then they (each one) needs to be measured so that they are the same length.

I was actually thinking of changing the pulleys to SPA wedge (deeper profile and can handle similar loads as per B section)....making it a lot easier to change speeds via the pulley.

Hi Stewart,

Not sure this will help you, but do you know anyone close by that has an AL-960 you could listen to for comparison?

Failing that maybe you could record the noise it's making and post it here on the forum as an mp3 or wav, that might give other AL-960 owners some idea of how to help.

The only other thing I can suggest that won't break the bank is buy some good earmuffs...

Regards
Ray