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Thread: Alfred Herbert (?) Dividing head
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19th June 2013, 01:52 AM #1
Alfred Herbert (?) Dividing head
Hi all,
After a nice little drive today i know have a new DH, Pratt 3 jaw and a Tos 3 jaw. I bough the Tos as it was a plain back with a D1-8 backplate, in great nick with both sets of jaws. A good size for the LeBlond. If you could use the backplate let me know. The Pratt on the DH is a steel bodied chuck, but only with the reverse jaws. It looks like i can buy soft jaws to fit at a decent price, but proper jaws will cost me a fortune.
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The DH itself is big, it weighs in at 102kg, without the chuck. It has had a dulux at some point, all the angle grads are painted over etc. No name on the head itself yet, but the dividing plate has "Alfred Herbert Tool Makers" on it. Although that would point to the head being British and all the fasteners so far have been metric......Hence the (?).
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There are serrations at one point on the outer edge of the plate, and a corresponding shaft that can engage with them. A lock?
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The Plate is positioned by an expanding pin, a tapered bolt drives the 2 halves apart.
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I pulled the "top" of the head to reveal a pristine worm and gear, much to Michael's relief no doubt....
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The square nut drives a large gear on the main shaft than moves the toothed clutch that engages the worm gear in and out.
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Not sure about this one, it has a gear on the end of it that drives a rack in there.....the what end i'm not sure yet.
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If it sounds like i'm typing high or drunk i had waaaaaaay too much caffeine and sugar today and now i can't sleep.....worked until 12.00 and then drove 600km.
A fair bit of dried up oil in there but otherwise looks ok. Hopefully i'll get some play time tomorrow......
Cheers,
Ew1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.
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19th June 2013 01:52 AM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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19th June 2013, 02:15 AM #2
Nice score Ewan, that dividing head weighs more than some lathes... I had a bit of a look at a Herbert vertical grinder a few weeks back, nicely made but "BIG" 36" diameter magnetic chuck..
Are you going to do a full restoration?
Regards
Ray
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19th June 2013, 08:23 AM #3Philomath in training
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100kg? You will need a hoist for that.
What's the ratio - 40:1?
I have a manual for a B&S dividing head if you need the tables
Michael
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19th June 2013, 08:40 AM #4Senior Member
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Nice pick up there Ewan,that D/H will see you out and by the looks of your little bloke [''the shaper jockey'']he will see it into his next generation should he take up the trade.
Mars coming along in bits now and got some bits pickling in the electro bath.Looks like the factory paint on this one is Indian Red near to Maroon. Cheers John.
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19th June 2013, 10:51 AM #5SENIOR MEMBER
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Hope it fits on your machine well. I thought about buying it myself when it was listed but decided it was just too big & heavy to be bothered with. A smaller one I can fit to the Victoria mill will come along at some point.
I already have one of the Taiwanese units that's served me well for the last 30 years. Only reason for looking is, the theoretical ability to cut spiral gears etc.
PDW
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19th June 2013, 09:16 PM #6
Well, i just learnt something....you can only multi quote 3 posts.....
Looks like a full Job ray, Fair bit of muck in the bowls of it and the paint job is horrible. I see a dose of resada green coming on....
Yes Michael, it is 40:1, copies of the tables would be great, that way i can work out the missing plates etc
The shaper Jockey eh? i like that I guess you have been looking at the Queen city shaper thread. I just thought he was the improved power downfeed.....
I think the head will fit just fine. probably as big as you would want to go though. Yes it will be a hoist job, which is a pain. I lifted it out of the van onto a trolley and then onto the scales but i certainly won't be lifting it onto the mill......
The unknown and stuck pinion was not stuck, it is for direct indexing. There is a plate on the spindle nose with 24 holes and a tapered pin that engages the holes. I thought it was stuck but i just didn't have a hole lined up.
Rest of the pics should be self explanatory.
Cheers,
Ew1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.
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20th June 2013, 09:30 AM #7Senior Member
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Morning Ewan,couldn't help myself with the connection to the young bloke I was my old man's shadow at the same age.Hence the terminal disease of old old machine pox.It never ceases to amaze me how those dividing heads manage to absorb so much ''gunge'' through out their working life.It is these re furbishments that take this old stuff to its next custodian in a healthy and accurate state.Nice pick up got a smaller brother to yours about 2/3. Cheers John. Think that Herbert badge a fitment by the dealer mine is a unknown maker too but a 40 to 1.They were hundreds of pounds new. Pound currency per pound weight. Next look out for you is a suitable tail stock to match will keep my eyes skinned this end Cheers John
Last edited by j.ashburn; 20th June 2013 at 09:38 AM. Reason: more to add
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21st June 2013, 09:26 AM #8Pink 10EE owner
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21st June 2013, 12:29 PM #9
Hey Uee,
I have an old Elliot DH that looks very similar to that. Even weighs close to the same. I'll try grab a photo and post it up.
Elliot is a pommy brand, So I will look and see what the screw threads are..
MattWarning Disclaimer
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21st June 2013, 09:05 PM #10Philomath in training
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22nd June 2013, 12:12 AM #11
Hi Matt,
It is now definitely a Alfred Herbert, the name and serial number is cast on the inside of one of the gear covers. It has imperial fixings also, i just couldn't get imperial spanners on the nuts due to the thick coat of Dulux, hence the initial confusion.
Hi RC,
With some help from Michael i now understand why you need to lock the plate in place for normal dividing, and unlock it for differential indexing. No extra's at all, i guess i'll need to make the standard 12 gears, i was looking today and they will need to be 10dp to get the 24t to have a bit of meat, the spindle on the head is 1.375". I'll also need to make a banjo and gear spindle for the back of the head, the bore in the head just has an internal keyway. Have to think about that one.
In that first pic the nut on the right is the spindle lock, just a pair of brass plugs that pull up on the spindle, like a drill press or the HM50 quill.
The other one is to engage the direct indexing pin.
The head is now entirely in bits, it has plain bearings, tapered on the front and parallel rear. Lots of white metal washers for thrust. First casting is in the electrolysis bath, should be done by tomorrow.
The only thing i found that was highly unusual, well to me anyway, is the way the backlash is removed from the gear train. The worm and drive gear can be moved up and down simply with a packer that looks like it has been ground to suit. On of the spur gears and the worm gear ar made in 2 halves, fixed together with over bored clearance holes and have a small cam. By turning the cam the 2 halves of the gear can be moved independently giving the illusion of a thicker gear tooth.
Cheers,
Ew1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.
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22nd June 2013, 08:23 AM #12Philomath in training
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My D/H uses 12DP gears - coincidentally(?), the DP of the gears on the head itself. Have a look at any other equipment you have that uses change gears - it may be more convenient to make your gears in whatever module/ DP that a lathe etc takes so they are common. Smaller DP is better as there is less material to scrounge when you make them. If they are DP gears I may be able to lend you the cutters (or perhaps find some at that second hand place). Check as well the power take off on Mlle. You may find that it's diameter & length dictate the gear hub. It could be easier to modify/ reduce the D/H input shaft diameter, especially if the unit is in pieces rather than fatten up Mlle (the D/H input shaft is 1.375" diameter, Mlle would be metric - 25/30/35mm?). The two will need to be common* if you want to do spiral milling. I am lucky that the mill is 25mm, the D/H 25.4mm.
*When I made the D/H gear set I didn't have the mill but if I were doing it now everything would be 25mm.
The gear spindle should not be difficult to sort out. Mine has no key but is tapered. I hold it in place with a thick washer and screw (like a draw bar of zero length) as there is a step in the spindle bore.
That's a common (high end) way of reducing backlash on (therefore expensive) equipment. I've seen it done with spur gears but this is the first time I've heard it done for worm gears. Sometimes the two halves are spring loaded so that the adjustment is "automatic"
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22nd June 2013, 10:32 AM #13.
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Ew,
White anting Michael's offer of tables is not my intention but if you haven't already done so, have a look at the Brown and Sharpe "Practical Treatise on Milling and Milling Machines". ( Blue grey cover, about A5 size , 20mm thick, probably serving as a packer under something in the shed .) There is a chapter devoted to their universal spiral index centres, indexing and cutting spirals. And there's about 80 pages of tables devoted to indexing, spirals and cam cutting, the latter having some importance if you owned a cam controlled automatic screw machine.
Great photos. Do you have a shot of the head prior to evisceration?
And, what is the centre height? Bridgeport made a tall tailstock to suit their rotary table when vertically mounted. Quite a neat looker and sometimes found cheaply on Ebay but I guess any T/S jacked up on a raising block would do the trick.
BT
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22nd June 2013, 10:47 AM #14Senior Member
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Hi All, on the dividing head worm to worm wheel mesh.Some dividing heads as mine has has an eccentric bush allowing the worn to swing down out of mesh for setting up or manual indexing.I like the radial way the mesh on Ewan's head can be disconnected but its a high end ''capital'' piece.John.
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22nd June 2013, 08:29 PM #15
Hi BT,
I found the book, propping something up in the office would you believe.....It does have the spiral section, and direct and indirect indexing, but nothing on differential indexing. Would you like copies of the spiral section Michael?
I think the center height is 6", although i did not check it before pulling it apart. There is a B/P head on ebay ATM, not what i could call cheap though. Bridgeport Rotary Table Dividing Head Center Adjustable Tailstock Holder | eBay I'm wondering if a lathe T/S may be a good option. I really don't like the one that i have for my RT.
The only other pics i have are the sellers.
Cheers,
Ew1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.
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