Thread: Alfred Herbert (?) Dividing head

Nice score Ewan, that dividing head weighs more than some lathes... I had a bit of a look at a Herbert vertical grinder a few weeks back, nicely made but "BIG" 36" diameter magnetic chuck..

Are you going to do a full restoration?

Regards
Ray

100kg? You will need a hoist for that.
What's the ratio - 40:1?
I have a manual for a B&S dividing head if you need the tables

Michael

Originally Posted by Michael G

100kg? You will need a hoist for that.
What's the ratio - 40:1?
I have a manual for a B&S dividing head if you need the tables

Michael

Nice pick up there Ewan,that D/H will see you out and by the looks of your little bloke [''the shaper jockey'']he will see it into his next generation should he take up the trade.
Mars coming along in bits now and got some bits pickling in the electro bath.Looks like the factory paint on this one is Indian Red near to Maroon. Cheers John.

Hope it fits on your machine well. I thought about buying it myself when it was listed but decided it was just too big & heavy to be bothered with. A smaller one I can fit to the Victoria mill will come along at some point.

I already have one of the Taiwanese units that's served me well for the last 30 years. Only reason for looking is, the theoretical ability to cut spiral gears etc.

PDW

Well, i just learnt something....you can only multi quote 3 posts.....

Originally Posted by RayG

Nice score Ewan, that dividing head weighs more than some lathes... I had a bit of a look at a Herbert vertical grinder a few weeks back, nicely made but "BIG" 36" diameter magnetic chuck..

Are you going to do a full restoration?

Regards
Ray

Looks like a full Job ray, Fair bit of muck in the bowls of it and the paint job is horrible. I see a dose of resada green coming on....

Originally Posted by Michael G

100kg? You will need a hoist for that.
What's the ratio - 40:1?
I have a manual for a B&S dividing head if you need the tables

Michael

Yes Michael, it is 40:1, copies of the tables would be great, that way i can work out the missing plates etc

Originally Posted by j.ashburn

Nice pick up there Ewan,that D/H will see you out and by the looks of your little bloke [''the shaper jockey'']he will see it into his next generation should he take up the trade.
Mars coming along in bits now and got some bits pickling in the electro bath.Looks like the factory paint on this one is Indian Red near to Maroon. Cheers John.

The shaper Jockey eh? i like that I guess you have been looking at the Queen city shaper thread. I just thought he was the improved power downfeed.....

I think the head will fit just fine. probably as big as you would want to go though. Yes it will be a hoist job, which is a pain. I lifted it out of the van onto a trolley and then onto the scales but i certainly won't be lifting it onto the mill......

The unknown and stuck pinion was not stuck, it is for direct indexing. There is a plate on the spindle nose with 24 holes and a tapered pin that engages the holes. I thought it was stuck but i just didn't have a hole lined up.
Rest of the pics should be self explanatory.
Cheers,
Ew

Originally Posted by Ueee

Well, i just learnt something....you can only multi quote 3 posts.....



Looks like a full Job ray, Fair bit of muck in the bowls of it and the paint job is horrible. I see a dose of resada green coming on....



Yes Michael, it is 40:1, copies of the tables would be great, that way i can work out the missing plates etc



The shaper Jockey eh? i like that I guess you have been looking at the Queen city shaper thread. I just thought he was the improved power downfeed.....

I think the head will fit just fine. probably as big as you would want to go though. Yes it will be a hoist job, which is a pain. I lifted it out of the van onto a trolley and then onto the scales but i certainly won't be lifting it onto the mill......

The unknown and stuck pinion was not stuck, it is for direct indexing. There is a plate on the spindle nose with 24 holes and a tapered pin that engages the holes. I thought it was stuck but i just didn't have a hole lined up.
Rest of the pics should be self explanatory.
Cheers,
Ew

Morning Ewan,couldn't help myself with the connection to the young bloke I was my old man's shadow at the same age.Hence the terminal disease of old old machine pox.It never ceases to amaze me how those dividing heads manage to absorb so much ''gunge'' through out their working life.It is these re furbishments that take this old stuff to its next custodian in a healthy and accurate state.Nice pick up got a smaller brother to yours about 2/3. Cheers John. Think that Herbert badge a fitment by the dealer mine is a unknown maker too but a 40 to 1.They were hundreds of pounds new. Pound currency per pound weight. Next look out for you is a suitable tail stock to match will keep my eyes skinned this end Cheers John

Originally Posted by Ueee

There are serrations at one point on the outer edge of the plate, and a corresponding shaft that can engage with them. A lock?

Yes it is a lock, you lock it when doing normal dividing....

Do you have any extras, like change gears?

I have a russian dividing head, probably slightly smaller...

Hey Uee,
I have an old Elliot DH that looks very similar to that. Even weighs close to the same. I'll try grab a photo and post it up.
Elliot is a pommy brand, So I will look and see what the screw threads are..
Matt

Originally Posted by Ueee

Not sure about this one, it has a gear on the end of it that drives a rack in there.....the what end i'm not sure yet.

DSCN0317 (Large).jpgDSCN0318 (Large).jpg


Cheers,
Ew

The other thing you should also have is a brake/ lock so that once you have dialed up the angle you want you can lock the D/H spindle in position. That might be it, although how it works I'll leave to you to work out.

Michael

Originally Posted by matthew_g

Hey Uee,
I have an old Elliot DH that looks very similar to that. Even weighs close to the same. I'll try grab a photo and post it up.
Elliot is a pommy brand, So I will look and see what the screw threads are..
Matt

Hi Matt,
It is now definitely a Alfred Herbert, the name and serial number is cast on the inside of one of the gear covers. It has imperial fixings also, i just couldn't get imperial spanners on the nuts due to the thick coat of Dulux, hence the initial confusion.

Originally Posted by .RC.

Yes it is a lock, you lock it when doing normal dividing....

Do you have any extras, like change gears?

I have a russian dividing head, probably slightly smaller...

Hi RC,
With some help from Michael i now understand why you need to lock the plate in place for normal dividing, and unlock it for differential indexing. No extra's at all, i guess i'll need to make the standard 12 gears, i was looking today and they will need to be 10dp to get the 24t to have a bit of meat, the spindle on the head is 1.375". I'll also need to make a banjo and gear spindle for the back of the head, the bore in the head just has an internal keyway. Have to think about that one.

Originally Posted by Michael G

The other thing you should also have is a brake/ lock so that once you have dialed up the angle you want you can lock the D/H spindle in position. That might be it, although how it works I'll leave to you to work out.

Michael

In that first pic the nut on the right is the spindle lock, just a pair of brass plugs that pull up on the spindle, like a drill press or the HM50 quill.
The other one is to engage the direct indexing pin.

The head is now entirely in bits, it has plain bearings, tapered on the front and parallel rear. Lots of white metal washers for thrust. First casting is in the electrolysis bath, should be done by tomorrow.
The only thing i found that was highly unusual, well to me anyway, is the way the backlash is removed from the gear train. The worm and drive gear can be moved up and down simply with a packer that looks like it has been ground to suit. On of the spur gears and the worm gear ar made in 2 halves, fixed together with over bored clearance holes and have a small cam. By turning the cam the 2 halves of the gear can be moved independently giving the illusion of a thicker gear tooth.

Cheers,
Ew

Originally Posted by Ueee

No extra's at all, I guess I'll need to make the standard 12 gears, i was looking today and they will need to be 10dp to get the 24t to have a bit of meat, the spindle on the head is 1.375". I'll also need to make a banjo and gear spindle for the back of the head, the bore in the head just has an internal keyway. Have to think about that one.

My D/H uses 12DP gears - coincidentally(?), the DP of the gears on the head itself. Have a look at any other equipment you have that uses change gears - it may be more convenient to make your gears in whatever module/ DP that a lathe etc takes so they are common. Smaller DP is better as there is less material to scrounge when you make them. If they are DP gears I may be able to lend you the cutters (or perhaps find some at that second hand place). Check as well the power take off on Mlle. You may find that it's diameter & length dictate the gear hub. It could be easier to modify/ reduce the D/H input shaft diameter, especially if the unit is in pieces rather than fatten up Mlle (the D/H input shaft is 1.375" diameter, Mlle would be metric - 25/30/35mm?). The two will need to be common* if you want to do spiral milling. I am lucky that the mill is 25mm, the D/H 25.4mm.
*When I made the D/H gear set I didn't have the mill but if I were doing it now everything would be 25mm.
The gear spindle should not be difficult to sort out. Mine has no key but is tapered. I hold it in place with a thick washer and screw (like a draw bar of zero length) as there is a step in the spindle bore.

Originally Posted by Ueee

The only thing I found that was highly unusual, well to me anyway, is the way the backlash is removed from the gear train. The worm and drive gear can be moved up and down simply with a packer that looks like it has been ground to suit. One of the spur gears and the worm gear are made in 2 halves, fixed together with over bored clearance holes and have a small cam. By turning the cam the 2 halves of the gear can be moved independently giving the illusion of a thicker gear tooth.

That's a common (high end) way of reducing backlash on (therefore expensive) equipment. I've seen it done with spur gears but this is the first time I've heard it done for worm gears. Sometimes the two halves are spring loaded so that the adjustment is "automatic"

Ew,

White anting Michael's offer of tables is not my intention but if you haven't already done so, have a look at the Brown and Sharpe "Practical Treatise on Milling and Milling Machines". ( Blue grey cover, about A5 size , 20mm thick, probably serving as a packer under something in the shed .) There is a chapter devoted to their universal spiral index centres, indexing and cutting spirals. And there's about 80 pages of tables devoted to indexing, spirals and cam cutting, the latter having some importance if you owned a cam controlled automatic screw machine.

Great photos. Do you have a shot of the head prior to evisceration?

And, what is the centre height? Bridgeport made a tall tailstock to suit their rotary table when vertically mounted. Quite a neat looker and sometimes found cheaply on Ebay but I guess any T/S jacked up on a raising block would do the trick.

BT

Hi All, on the dividing head worm to worm wheel mesh.Some dividing heads as mine has has an eccentric bush allowing the worn to swing down out of mesh for setting up or manual indexing.I like the radial way the mesh on Ewan's head can be disconnected but its a high end ''capital'' piece.John.

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

Ew,

White anting Michael's offer of tables is not my intention but if you haven't already done so, have a look at the Brown and Sharpe "Practical Treatise on Milling and Milling Machines". ( Blue grey cover, about A5 size , 20mm thick, probably serving as a packer under something in the shed .) There is a chapter devoted to their universal spiral index centres, indexing and cutting spirals. And there's about 80 pages of tables devoted to indexing, spirals and cam cutting, the latter having some importance if you owned a cam controlled automatic screw machine.

Great photos. Do you have a shot of the head prior to evisceration?

And, what is the centre height? Bridgeport made a tall tailstock to suit their rotary table when vertically mounted. Quite a neat looker and sometimes found cheaply on Ebay but I guess any T/S jacked up on a raising block would do the trick.

BT

Hi BT,
I found the book, propping something up in the office would you believe.....It does have the spiral section, and direct and indirect indexing, but nothing on differential indexing. Would you like copies of the spiral section Michael?

I think the center height is 6", although i did not check it before pulling it apart. There is a B/P head on ebay ATM, not what i could call cheap though. Bridgeport Rotary Table Dividing Head Center Adjustable Tailstock Holder | eBay I'm wondering if a lathe T/S may be a good option. I really don't like the one that i have for my RT.

The only other pics i have are the sellers.

Cheers,
Ew