Thread: Annealed Spring Steel

Hi Eric,

I'm guessing a bit here, but just normal high carbon spring steel is probably what you want, in the UK it's CS95, or in the USA 1095.

Looking for a UK supplier of CS95, try this mob Spring Steel

You buy blue tempered spring steel as shim stock. And then you have to anneal it yourself (just curious why would you want it annealed)

Then re-do the heat treatment to harden it and temper back to spring temper.

Or....

You could buy 01 (BS4659) precision ground flat bar, (supplied in the annealed state) you can get it in 1m lengths 15mmx1mm (and other sizes) http://www.westyorkssteel.com/ground_flat_stock.html
Then harden and temper to spring temper.


Regards
Ray

PS I see they also stock 1/16 x 5/8 in 36 in lengths, that might be closer to your dimensions.

try these guys www.sssprings.com.au

Hi Guys,
Thankyou very much for the info to where I could get some annealed spring steel for my latest project,

To answer your question Ray I need the spring steel to produce all the suspension springs on a model of a 1097 Rolls Royce Silver Ghost and because I have to shape all the ends of each leaf spring and form the ends of the main leaf I thought it advisable to have the material annealed make up the complete leaf spring assembly then have it heat hardened but please give me your opinion of what you would do I am open to sugestions.

Thank you ..........Eric

i hope your not building a secret bat to help retain the ashes

Hi Eric,

Difficult to answer quickly, I understand now, what you are trying to do, I see a number of interesting problems you will have to solve, I think getting the right spring rate might be the trickiest, I imagine if you had access to some original data on deflection under different loads you should be able to set up a test jig of sorts and hang weights off it and measure the deflection.. anyway, that's another question.

I would buy the O1 ground bar stock, that I linked to earlier and build up the spring from that, it is supplied already in the annealed state, so you can work it just like mild steel. Once you have fabricated the springs, it's off to the heat treaters, and you will have to specify what temper you want, the best way to specify that, is to measure the hardness of an original spring. But since that might involve equipment that you don't have, I would tell the heat treater to temper it to blue spring. (48-51Rc)

Just for interest, the procedure is roughly...

The process is heat to bright red, (790-815 C) (non-magnetic, that is the steel looses it's magnetic properties) hold for a short while (10 minutes) , then quench in oil. Then as soon as the temperature drops to 60 C or so, immediately temper back to 50 or so Rockwell C (which is spring temper) by re-heating to 400C and holding for an hour or so.

While you "could" do it in a home workshop, it would require a good temperature controlled furnace large enough to fit the parts, and a bit of experience.

I would think you'd be better off taking the parts to a commercial heat treatment firm.

Imagine if you got the tempering wrong, or uneven, you might end up with brittle sections, and I don't like the idea of a spring snapping while you are bouncing down the road...

Once you have the process sorted, you might want to make more than one set, with different spring rates, maybe a "sports" version with stiffer springs...

Regards
Ray

The dimension spring Steel you seek may best be sourced from a clock maker. Most likely they would have springs close to the dimension you waant from Clock springs that have lost their tension and they have no use for it. To anneal a spring like this I would place the coiled spring on a steel plate, say 1/4 inch thick and heat the underside using a Oxy Acetylene Torch. Heat till the spring turns cherry to bright red then quench in lime powder ( builders Lime is OK ) and leave to cool, which will be a slow process.
Try and get the spring an even colour before putting it in the Lime powder. Use the same technique to harden and temper.
cheers

P.S. Use the same technique to harden and temper. cheers. What I meant here is to heat the spring the same way but quench in a suitable oil. To temper clean the spring you have made with a file in places along the part enough to expose the metal shiny surface ( does no have to be the whole of the part just some of the part along it length. Be careful not to break the spring which will be quite brittle ) Heating the underside of the 1/4 plate very gently watching the colour change of the parts you have cleaned ensuring you heating is as even as possible. When the colour of the spring turns a golden brown or a little darker quench again in oil. The trick is to get an even colour across the spring you have made to ensure there are no hard spots which could be harder than other parts.
Hope this helps.

Hi Downunderoz,

What you suggest would be fine for clock springs, i'm not sure it would work for meter long laminated car springs...

Really big clocks?

Edit: I take it back, clock springs might be just the thing, the thing that confused me, was the meter long dimension... it's a model (!) I guess a bit like this one.



Regards
Ray

Sorry but O1 precision ground steel is not suitable for springs. It is a tool steel for making special tools. It cannot be forged without risk of hot short and it lacks the chemical properties for springs. It would also cost you an arm and a leg plus your wife and dog. If you tried ton use this material, you would be bitterly dissapointed. You really do need the genuine spring steel for this job.

Originally Posted by Kody

Sorry but O1 precision ground steel is not suitable for springs. It is a tool steel for making special tools. It cannot be forged without risk of hot short and it lacks the chemical properties for springs. It would also cost you an arm and a leg plus your wife and dog. If you tried ton use this material, you would be bitterly dissapointed. You really do need the genuine spring steel for this job.

Hi Kody,

In one sense you are right, 1095 or CS95 that I mentioned earlier would be better choices, but you can still make springs from O1, just temper to blue and it's fine. It's just high carbon steel after all... Not sure about forging, I've heated enough of it in the forge, but only ever to heat treat it, never tried it on the anvil.. I don't think Eric is planning on forging..

As for cost, the price of 1/16" x 3/4" x 18" is $3.65 per length, you can buy it and still keep the wife and dog, plus both arms and legs.

That said, I agree, proper spring steel like 1095 or CS95 would be a better choice.. Its just a pity you can't get it in the annealed state. Another alternative might be 5160 which is used in car leaf springs, it's a lower carbon spring steel, but you might get it for nothing, from the right place.

Regards
Ray

PS. From what I can find out, O1 forges just fine, but you need to forge below the critical temperature.

Not to upset you Azzrock but we do not require a special bat to retain the ashes a flippy stick would do,

Hi Ray
The photo that you put on the thread is the Rolls Royce vehicle that I intend to build. The plans that are in the Richard Blizzard Book are no where as detailed as the model shown, I have not got a clue who built the model that you kindly put on the thread if I did I would attempt to make contact in an effort to purchase a set of plans with the stunning detail, Maybe some one knows who the builder is.

The length of the complete leaf springs for the Front and Rear of the vehicle are 191mm long and the Rear Transverse Spring 171mm long. The reason why I asked for lengths in 1 Mtr was I was not sure if they could or not send the spring steel coiled up if not 1 Mtr length seemes a comfortable length to send through the post if attached to a stiff backing rail.

Thank you for the info on heat treatment of the spring steel when the material is in the finish leaf spring condition, There is a local company that makes boilers for small gauge Traction Engine and Trains they tell me they work closley with a company that
specialises in heat treatment of metals so that side of things are sorted,

I have not had any time today to phone the links you gave me Ray in an effort to make a purchase of the material but tomorrow I can persue it, Ile let you know how I get on,

Eric

According to Spring Design and Manufacture(workshop pratice series 19, about $10 on book depository), you could make the springs from MS and then using case hardening powder turn them into springs.

Stuart

I'm a bit puzzled by the concern for the properties of these model springs. Not wishing to detract in any way from the skill and dedication of modellers, but does it matter? Given that most of the thing seems to be made of wood? What have I missed?

Originally Posted by Dick Turpin

Hi Ray
The photo that you put on the thread is the Rolls Royce vehicle that I intend to build. The plans that are in the Richard Blizzard Book are no where as detailed as the model shown, I have not got a clue who built the model that you kindly put on the thread if I did I would attempt to make contact in an effort to purchase a set of plans with the stunning detail, Maybe some one knows who the builder is.

Eric

Hi Eric,

I found that picture by just googling "Richard Blizzard Rolls Royce" and then selected display images. That one was from here.. Rolls Royce silver Ghost | Flickr - Photo Sharing! someone called DerekB49 in the UK somewhere.

The less said about the ashes the better...

Hi Brian,

The concern over spring steel, is partly my fault, I mis-interpreted the phrase "Model of a 1907 Rolls Royce Silver Ghost" as "1907 Model Rolls Royce Silver Ghost"... thinking it was the full size version Either way it's a nice model....

And as Stuart says you could always make the springs from mild steel and case harden.

Still, a full size Silver Ghost would be a nice project..

Regards
Ray