Thread: Another Arbor To Turn - Suggestions Welcome.

Bob
I really think the only way you will tap or internal screwcut this arbor, is to anneal it.
It may as Ewan suggested, stress relieve, as well as anneal, & cause perhapse slight distortion.
I think I would be heating it up to red heat & letting it cool slowly, before more drills, boring bars, taps, are ruined & frustration continues !
Cannot imagine trying to cut a thread in the current hardened condition.
Those are my thoughts for today.
Hope you had a good Australia Day.
Bruce

Originally Posted by Abratool

Bob
I really think the only way you will tap or internal screwcut this arbor, is to anneal it.
It may as Ewan suggested, stress relieve, as well as anneal, & cause perhapse slight distortion.
I think I would be heating it up to red heat & letting it cool slowly, before more drills, boring bars, taps, are ruined & frustration continues !
Cannot imagine trying to cut a thread in the current hardened condition.
Those are my thoughts for today.
Hope you had a good Australia Day.
Bruce

Could not have had a better Australia day Bruce. We had swim at City Beach, a barbecue for lunch, drank a small amount of Emu Bitter then I slipped up to the shed and commenced the assembly of the Kaiser. I trust you had a great day too.

I will set up the taper turning attachment on the Hercus and have another try at a homemade arbor. This time I'll have a go at between centres to avoid having to use the less than rigid Hercus dividing head on the mill for cutting the drive dog slots. Stuart's suggestion of an M12 threaded centre in the drawbar threaded arbor end will be adopted.

Ew mentioned the difficulty of accurately measuring the 14mm internal bore. I'll turn up test plugs for both the 14 and more importantly, the 18.3mm bore that occurs between the thread and the taper of the STP arbor socket. I think I will machine the bores and the internal taper on the mill.

Bob.

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

Drank a small amount of Emu Bitter then I slipped up to the shed and commenced the assembly of the Kaiser.

More pics please - not of you drinking - just assembling the Kaiser to add to the ones in the Kaiser dissection thread. There might be something different that you do or I've missed.

Michael

Originally Posted by Michael G

More pics please - not of you drinking - just assembling the Kaiser to add to the ones in the Kaiser dissection thread. There might be something different that you do or I've missed.



Michael

I can't imagine many viewers are going to be enthralled looking at 60 photos of a step by step assembly Michael. How about I copy the photos onto a DVD and slip it in the mail?

The Kaiser owners who may benefit from our (mis)adventures probably don't live in Australia.

Bob.

061 (Large).JPG

I wasn't thinking 60, but if there is anything I missed or that is different about your Kaiser it would be good to have it on record.
(And you take a better photo than I do)

Michael

Originally Posted by Michael G

I wasn't thinking 60, but if there is anything I missed or that is different about your Kaiser it would be good to have it on record.
(And you take a better photo than I do)

Michael

I don't know much about the blog option on the forum Michael but it could be worth posting the photos in their entirety along with some descriptive notations, somewhere. Even if it's only of interest to a few.

And here's a couple of photos for Joe who suggested making a 3 Morse arbor along with the 30. The first photo is the seller's.

I decided to tackle the CTC arbor one last time and there's a good chance I've ruined my set of M16 Goliaths in the process. The STP arbor drawing Michael procured from Kaiser indicates that a 18.3mm clearance hole is required to accommodate the parallel section of the STP arbor followed by a 14mm hole the suit the M16 thread. I managed to bore both these holes with the arbor mounted in the mill's horizontal spindle. The boring was accompanied by considerable howling as the long brazed carbide tipped bar struggled towards the end of the 58mm deep hole. I was concerned about the tapping hole diameter due to the hardness of the CTC arbor so I opted for "call a friend" and rang Stuart. Stu directed me to the tapping hole chart posted by Bob in Fence's "Which Tap and Die Set to Purchase' thread - https://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...69#post1743169 We agreed on 65%, a 14.6mm hole.

I turned up a guide bush and with a liberal application of Trefolex, started the tapping procedure with the arbor clamped in my 8" bench vice. The taper tap started to cut then became progressively harder to turn with my 14 inch tap handle. By the time I had progressed to the plug tap, both the tap and I were struggling. The tap was making cracking sounds a bit like a large branch breaking off a tree. I thought the tap might shatter. The resultant "tapped" hole is not deep enough. I can't make it deeper so I decided to walk away.

I've commenced work on a 1045 version. Joyful stuff to machine in comparison to hardened 1060.

Bob.

Hi BT,

You could anneal just that end of the arbor where you want to tap.. Get a bucket of sand... heat to orange.... bury in sand.... have beer... take nap.... tap M16 ... take picture... QED.

Ray.

Originally Posted by RayG

Hi BT,

You could anneal just that end of the arbor where you want to tap.. Get a bucket of sand... heat to orange.... bury in sand.... have beer... take nap.... tap M16 ... take picture... QED.

Ray.

Ray & Bob
Annealing is what I suggested a while back.
"Pushing it uphill trying to tap hardened steel"
The 4140 sounds like an achievable alternative, but then again 1020 would surely do the job ?
regards
Bruce

Originally Posted by Abratool

Ray & Bob
Annealing is what I suggested a while back.
"Pushing it uphill trying to tap hardened steel"
The 4140 sounds like an achievable alternative, but then again 1020 would surely do the job ?
regards
Bruce

I've got Mapp gas and nothing to lose. Reckon it's worth a go. I wasn't trying not to heed advice regarding the annealing, I just didn't know how to go about it without effing it up.

Bone dry yellow sand?

ps. and Bruce. The replacement in the fixed steady is 1045. Splitting the difference.

Bob,
Sorry to hear that you have run into trouble trying to tap one of CTC,s arbors. I managed to tap one of my 16mm ones an extra 10mm deeper so I must have been lucky. I have a suggestion for you to consider, could you drill and tap to 16mm a bush say 50mm long,OD to suit. Then screw a piece of 16mm threaded bar into it with enough length to enable you to engage it into your mandrels thread and then tighten the bush down until it tight against the face of the arbor, leaving enough of the internal thread available for you to pickup the pitch accurately with a inserted threading tool. You could then remove the threaded bar and mandrel and hopefully cut the arbor thread deeper, a sharp insert well lubricated should be able to cut a decent thread.
Bob

So close, though I did say it would get harder as you got deeper and the wall thickness got thinner. Cant win them all. Any sign of damage on the taps?(I'd say given the price of replacement getting them sharpened is an option, though I think you'd need someone that can sharpen the tapers not the flutes.. anyone do that?) Time to fire up your T&C grinder(though it isnt that easy )

Thinking aloud here.
1. if you're going to "heat treat" do you really need to aim to anneal it? or would a high tempting be good enough?
2.* if you do fully anneal would it possibly be better to go back the the two piece arbor, cutting in two with a thin cut off disc. That way at least you haven't effected the arbor below the cut line(yes I know the taper wont contact the spindle taper above the cut line). I thought I found a problem with this, if the M16 thread was to come undone instead of the M12. But as I see it, as the top piece wouldn't be tight against the taper as soon as the M16 thread came undone the M12 would be loose also.

Stuart

*I really think this might be getting a little excited lol

Originally Posted by Stustoys

So close, though I did say it would get harder as you got deeper and the wall thickness got thinner. Cant win them all. Any sign of damage on the taps?(I'd say given the price of replacement getting them sharpened is an option, though I think you'd need someone that can sharpen the tapers not the flutes.. anyone do that?) Time to fire up your T&C grinder(though it isnt that easy )

Thinking aloud here.
1. if you're going to "heat treat" do you really need to aim to anneal it? or would a high tempting be good enough?
2.* if you do fully anneal would it possibly be better to go back the the two piece arbor, cutting in two with a thin cut off disc. That way at least you haven't effected the arbor below the cut line(yes I know the taper wont contact the spindle taper above the cut line). I thought I found a problem with this, if the M16 thread was to come undone instead of the M12. But as I see it, as the top piece wouldn't be tight against the taper as soon as the M16 thread came undone the M12 would be loose also.

Stuart

*I really think this might be getting a little excited lol

Ahh Stu. The number of times I could have used the T and C! I'll get the IKEA hump out of the way then give the No.1 my full attention. And then I have to finish off that plane.

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

Ahh Stu. The number of times I could have used the T and C!

Har har har. How many times have I made that exact same comment myself.

I'm going to have to make an arbor up for the Kaiser boring head Michael used to have. Not a trivial project if you actually want to keep some of the female taper sleeve section.

Perhaps the Hercus T&C grinder cylindrical OD grinder attachment might not be quite as big a POS as the rest of the machine.

PDW