Thread: Another Arbor To Turn - Suggestions Welcome.

Originally Posted by RayG

Hi BT, I doubt it, he was just trolling. If he was trying to make a living from it, who would want work from someone with so little pride in his work.

No, I understand what he's saying and I agree with him. I, too, do not and will not take more time to do a job than the job requires. Would you grind every machined surface when a milled surface was sufficient? These are the decisions we make all the time.

The manner in which he goes about saying it, however, is simply an invitation to a brawl and in that sense could be regarded as trolling.

PDW

Originally Posted by PDW

I too, do not and will not take more time to do a job than the job requires.

No problem with that either, I think it's just a different philosophy, for myself, I think you tend to get out of life what you put into it.

The people who designed that boring head certainly didn't stop at the minimum the job required. Attention to detail and well thought out design, these things are never a waste of time.

And yes, PC was trolling.. sometimes he comes up with brilliant one-liners, other times he is just another troll.

Ray

Originally Posted by RayG

No problem with that either, I think it's just a different philosophy, for myself, I think you tend to get out of life what you put into it.

The people who designed that boring head certainly didn't stop at the minimum the job required. Attention to detail and well thought out design, these things are never a waste of time.

And yes, PC was trolling.. sometimes he comes up with brilliant one-liners, other times he is just another troll.

Ray

Friend of mine worked on a lot of the old USSR watches and similar stuff. He said that the machining and finishing was absolutely first class on all internal surfaces that mattered - bearing surfaces and the like. The rest was pretty rough milling. Perfectly functional but definitely not in the 'Swiss watch' category.

I agree that the Kaiser heads are in the 'jewel' category. That's why I bought one. As to whether it actually performs better than the $67 Ebay bottom-feeder no-name, no country of origin boring & facing head I also have (which didn't work when acquired)...... have to wait and see. The cheap one is certainly a much, much simpler design and in this particular case I do not regard that as a positive attribute.

But we're not really discussing the equipment, it's the output of it. If a surface has a tolerance specification that's pretty coarse, doing it to a much finer and closer tolerance may make you feel better about what you do, but that comes at a significant cost in time, and that I regard as an opportunity cost that holds up other projects. I already have about 10X more projects than life expectancy - if I executed everything to the uttermost level of finish and accuracy that I am capable of, I'd still be laying out the keel of my boat instead of cursing the fitout......

PDW

Originally Posted by PDW

if I executed everything to the uttermost level of finish and accuracy that I am capable of, I'd still be laying out the keel of my boat instead of cursing the fitout......
PDW

I'm willing to bet there are parts of the boat that are painted and polished to the nth degree just to make it look good... to hell with functionality, give me polished nautical brass instruments and gleaming stainless steel railings...

Ray

PS.. I bet it all works perfectly as well ...

Originally Posted by RayG

I'm willing to bet there are parts of the boat that are painted and polished to the nth degree just to make it look good... to hell with functionality, give me polished nautical brass instruments and gleaming stainless steel railings...

Ray

PS.. I bet it all works perfectly as well ...

Hah - no polished stainless railings on my boat! It's all Sched 40 316 pipe with the mill scale left on, not that wimpy polished 1mm wall thickness stuff sold at inflated prices! The stanchions are 25x10 solid flat bar. Ditto for all the lovely bronze port holes - left with the sand cast finish on all non-mating surfaces so they can tarnish to a lovely green shade. The mating surfaces are all machined, though. I hate leaks.

The problem with polished fittings is, you have to *keep* polishing them. I am utterly lazy.

My thrust bearing assembly OTOH is a work of precision - 0.0002" TIR on the bearing housing & carrier (which is as good as my skills could achieve) as I'd prefer not to have to replace bearings while rolling badly in a seaway.....

Lots and lots and lots of paint though. I'd never have believed anyone if they'd told me just how much paint I'd be applying but I only get one good chance to do it right.

PDW

Hi bt thanks for your posts and great work. I may of missed something but the first photo whats the black stuff?
do you finish your jobs like this with emery? whats the tests in the second photo about.
regarding surface finish have you tried facing cast iron with a multi tip facing cutter? How does this compair with
the facing head?
aaron

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

Abandoned the too hard 1060 CTC arbor and used 1045. Ray will be shaking his head but the soft option worked.

BT

Originally Posted by azzrock

Hi bt thanks for your posts and great work. I may of missed something but the first photo whats the black stuff?
do you finish your jobs like this with emery? whats the tests in the second photo about.
regarding surface finish have you tried facing cast iron with a multi tip facing cutter? How does this compair with
the facing head?
aaron

Thanks Aaron,

The black is candle soot. Ray suggested it as a way of determining fit. I had been fooling around unsuccessfully with bearing blue, trying to gauge the fit of some of my other 30 arbors when Ray steered me towards this age old technique. The soot simply rubs off where contact is made. I was happy enough with the fit of the home made arbor, it being no worse than that of the too hard CTC arbor's.

In the case of the 1045 I used, I did resort to a lick with some carborundum paper wrapped around a file. My Kennametal KC5010 inserts tend to leave a faint torn finish on that steel whereas the finish off the tool on 4140 and that hardened 1060 is mirror like.

The dual indicator setup was my way of setting the compound to 8 1/2 degrees, the Kaiser's STP taper angle. Fortunately the Swiss machined the M16 thread accurately because I could only hold the head by its thread. In my Mickey Mouse set up, I had .02mm run out. The second indicator aided setting the arbor in a position showing the least error.

I do have a photo somewhere of the finish achieved with my multi tip face mill. The Kaiser probably has the edge because of its extra fine facing feed, 0.002" per revolution.

BT

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

Thanks Aaron,

The black is candle soot. Ray suggested it as a way of determining fit. I had been fooling around unsuccessfully with bearing blue, trying to gauge the fit of some of my other 30 arbors when Ray steered me towards this age old technique. The soot simply rubs off where contact is made. I was happy enough with the fit of the home made arbor, it being no worse than that of the too hard CTC arbor's.

In the case of the 1045 I used, I did resort to a lick with some carborundum paper wrapped around a file. My Kennametal KC5010 inserts tend to leave a faint torn finish on that steel whereas the finish off the tool on 4140 and that hardened 1060 is mirror like.

The dual indicator setup was my way of setting the compound to 8 1/2 degrees, the Kaiser's STP taper angle. Fortunately the Swiss machined the M16 thread accurately because I could only hold the head by its thread. In my Mickey Mouse set up, I had .02mm run out. The second indicator aided setting the arbor in a position showing the least error.

I do have a photo somewhere of the finish achieved with my multi tip face mill. The Kaiser probably has the edge because of its extra fine facing feed, 0.002" per revolution.

BT

thanks bt. now i know the soot trick. I was wondering about the compound slide set up. of course silly me.
emery around the file is how i was taught to use emery. It is handy.
the question about the finish is because i tried something similar and was very happy with the finish until i tried a
seco secodex hr268-0100 face cutter. which is a 8 cutting edges square insert tool. It left my facing head for dead.
the facing head can cut a wider pass.
your set up look great
aaron

hi again thinking of the soot method. Is it the opposite of using bearing blue?
there seems to be a fair bit of soot. did you put it in the mill and turn the arbor 1/3 of
a turn.??
like you said your set up is giving you a good finish but do you have any inserts with a larger
radius than the one shone in the photo.?
thanks again
aaron

Aaron,

Here's a shot of three finishes achieved with my CTC face mill and my description lifted from an old thread....

I passed the cutter over a piece of 4E cast bar..

The first cut was 0.5mm deep with a spindle speed of 100 rpm and a feed rate of 17mm/min. A virtually flawless finish. The next cut was at 160 rpm with a feed of 29mm/min. The final cut was at 860 rpm and 29mm/min feed.. Slow and steady wins the day.

The CCGT09T304HP inserts are pointy. 04 indicates a corner radius of 1/64". Kennametal produce an ....08HP insert with a 1/32" radius. I haven't tried one. A perusal of their catalogue reveals that the 08 is the bluntest radius offered in high positive geometry 80 degree rhombics. They aren't real cheap inserts so my experimentation has been pretty limited. I'm using what was recommended by the Kennametal distributor for a low powered, lightweight lathe.

Soot rubs off on contact whereas blue is transferred. The 30 taper can't be rotated much, maybe a millimeter at best. Depends on the fit of the drive dogs.

Bob.

CTC Face Mill 020.jpg

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

Soot rubs off on contact whereas blue is transferred. The 30 taper can't be rotated much, maybe a millimeter at best. Depends on the fit of the drive dogs.

Can't you unbolt the dogs on your machine? I'm sure that at least one of my 40 taper spindles, the dogs are held in by socket head screws.

I like the finish from the facing head and as it doesn't have multiple feed settings, Kaiser obviously meant it to feed at a fine enough rate to give that surface finish. Yeah with a different tool grind, you could make it worse, but spending time and effort in pursuit of a *worse* result is something I'll leave to the likes of Pipeclay while I embrace my laziness....

Somewhere in my near future I see making a 40 taper arbor with a truncated SIP borer nose. Got to order a 13mm reamer first as the central shank is 12.98mm diameter and it's faster to ream than bore a hole that small.

PDW

Originally Posted by PDW

Can't you unbolt the dogs on your machine? I'm sure that at least one of my 40 taper spindles, the dogs are held in by socket head screws.

I like the finish from the facing head and as it doesn't have multiple feed settings, Kaiser obviously meant it to feed at a fine enough rate to give that surface finish. Yeah with a different tool grind, you could make it worse, but spending time and effort in pursuit of a *worse* result is something I'll leave to the likes of Pipeclay while I embrace my laziness....

Somewhere in my near future I see making a 40 taper arbor with a truncated SIP borer nose. Got to order a 13mm reamer first as the central shank is 12.98mm diameter and it's faster to ream than bore a hole that small.

PDW

If I could I would but I can't.


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I'm intrigued by the SIP mount Peter. Does the central spigot/spindle accommodate a small diameter drawbar?

Bob

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

I'm intrigued by the SIP mount. Does the central spigot/spindle accommodate a small diameter drawbar?

Yes - looked about 8mm / 5/16" size.

Michael

Originally Posted by Michael G

Yes - looked about 8mm / 5/16" size.

Michael

Seems wimpish given the size of the mount's female taper and the size of the machine it's intended for.


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